Not By Works

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OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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Do you really think that good works justify your salvation in the eyes of others? I know a lot of lost people who do greater works for others than most Christians.
Showing partiality towards the rich or only showing "love" in word and not in deed, can cause MEN to see these "christians" as less than genuine.

God knows who is His. Doesn't need evidence.


Peter denied Jesus before man out of fear, if he did not men would have seen him as a follower of Christ.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Do you think God didn't know what choice Abraham would make? I don't know why Genesis 22 is written that way, but God is omniscient, he knew EXACTLY which way Abraham would go on this.
Believe the Scriptures. Stop believing man made doctrines.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I am merely using Scripture to define Scripture. You are using man made commentaries to define Scripture. Please show me other places where the term "twelve tribes" is used as a reference to Jewish Christians. Thanks.
That's funny since I did not need a commentary to show me what is plainly obvious, :D especially when one reads the full letter, one can see he is clearly addressing issues within that body of believers.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Absolutely.

No person can see "faith" unless one speaks to it and puts it to work outwardly.
"Yep, she's a Christian. I saw her give to the poor. She is justified in my sight."

Do you see how ridiculous this is? Can you really determine who is saved by their good works?
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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I was justified before God the moment I believed the gospel. The faith of Christ justifies the believer.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I agree that we are justified before God the moment we are saved. James 2 has nothing to do with being justified before God. This is the point I'm trying to make. The justification isn't the justification of Abraham, it's the justification that his faith was real.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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That's funny since I did not need a commentary to show me what is plainly obvious, :D especially when one reads the full letter, one can see he is clearly addressing issues within that body of believers.
Are these people "saved"?

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I agree that we are justified before God the moment we are saved. James 2 has nothing to do with being justified before God. This is the point I'm trying to make. The justification isn't the justification of Abraham, it's the justification that his faith was real.
Who was with Abraham upon that mount? Nobody but God. Was Abraham justified before God or men upon that mount?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham was declared righteous the moment he believed, but he was not justified until he offered up Isaac. The Scripture was fulfilled when he offered up Isaac.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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So is the premise of this “without works” doctrine based upon the premise that one is saved by faith without substance?
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Are these people "saved"?

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Yes

I think we have discussed this before.
The word was planted in them.
Obviously they were not living as new creations, explains why James had to write such a long letter.

Otherwise he could have just written

"Dear Brethren,
I have learned that you have responded to the implanted word and allowed it to flourish in your lives and are living as new creations in Christ Jesus.
Since you are living as justified men before God you souls (meaning the type of life on this earth) will be saved.
Living in the flesh and sin only brings death and destruction and loss of rewards, therefore continue in the new victorious life.
I have heard a good report that you are showing forth your faith before men.
I give thanks for this every day.

James

End of Epistle.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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So is the premise of this “without works” doctrine based upon the premise that one is saved by faith without substance?
The substance is Christ's death on the cross. That's the faith of Christ in action. That's the faith that justifies the believer.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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"Yep, she's a Christian. I saw her give to the poor. She is justified in my sight."

Do you see how ridiculous this is? Can you really determine who is saved by their good works?
You're speaking of the opposite.
🤦‍♂️


Peter denied Jesus -> lack of a righteous work and it was seen before man as lack of faith.


In james there is teaching AGAINST a loveless (lack of righteous works) to SHOW the love of God in us as witnesses. (His body)

You're either being dishonest or making a strawman out of confusion.


No you can never be seen before a brother or sister as "justified as a true believer" by works. Lack of love (which manifests as works) before man will cause you to be less than blameless. They can doubt your faith. If you are blameless, before these men your faith is justified. They have nothing to point at to say "oh look, hypocrit... liar... Jesus wouldn't want that how can you say you love Him"...
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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Who was with Abraham upon that mount? Nobody but God. Was Abraham justified before God or men upon that mount?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham was declared righteous the moment he believed, but he was not justified until he offered up Isaac. The Scripture was fulfilled when he offered up Isaac.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

In verse 21, what quality or characteristic of Abraham was justified by his works? Was it that he was made right in the eyes of God? The verse doesn't say that, it only says that something about Abraham was justified by his works.

Earlier you said that you were justified the moment you were saved and I agree with that, but now you are saying that we are justified by works. So were justified by your faith or by your works?
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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"Yep, she's a Christian. I saw her give to the poor. She is justified in my sight."

Do you see how ridiculous this is? Can you really determine who is saved by their good works?
Okay I have to go.

One more time......

No one will ever know you have faith unless you manifest it.

How others receive that information is a secondary issue.

Without your "works" it will never be known.

Faith cannot be seen without works.

Again another simple concept.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I think we have discussed this before.
The word was planted in them.
Obviously they were not living as new creations, explains why James had to write such a long letter.
I think we have discussed this before. Yes maam.
The word was planted in them. "receive with meekness the engrafted word" Obviously, they have yet to do so.
Obviously they were not living as new creations, explains why James had to write such a long letter. They needed their souls saved. That's why James is asking them to receive with meekness the engrafted word.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
9,156
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21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

In verse 21, what quality or characteristic of Abraham was justified by his works? Was it that he was made right in the eyes of God? The verse doesn't say that, it only says that something about Abraham was justified by his works.

Earlier you said that you were justified the moment you were saved and I agree with that, but now you are saying that we are justified by works. So were justified by your faith or by your works?
Yes! The Church Age believe is justified the moment they believe the gospel. James is addressing the nation of Israel in the tribulation. That's my whole point.

Remember, the question James is responding to is: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul says yes to the body of Christ.
James says not faith only, but works to the twelve tribes in the tribulation.