Not By Works

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OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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ARRGG......

Show your faith by your works.

Speaking is showing our faith...how long would Christianity last if we did not speak to it, match that with works and it is powerful.

Even before I was a Christian in high school I saw this ... I did not understand it but I saw it and wondered!
Sis.... this guy's cheese seems to have fallen off of his bologna sandwhich.

If he keeps imputing false beliefs to you ignore that dishonesty. It has been exposed twice already.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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Your strawman is distorting your view of what she said. I explained it three times to you I believe.

The first you deleted some of my post and said bingo to one small bit. The next you made a strawman.. then again continued to impute beliefs to others.

No one is talking about judging salvation or being a fruit inspector. They are speaking of a less than perfect man judging you falsely based on lack of evidence via Gods love shining through you. (manifesting as works)
You're speaking of the opposite.
🤦‍♂️


Peter denied Jesus -> lack of a righteous work and it was seen before man as lack of faith.


In james there is teaching AGAINST a loveless (lack of righteous works) to SHOW the love of God in us as witnesses. (His body)

You're either being dishonest or making a strawman out of confusion.


No you can never be seen before a brother or sister as "justified as a true believer" by works. Lack of love (which manifests as works) before man will cause you to be less than blameless. They can doubt your faith. If you are blameless, before these men your faith is justified. They have nothing to point at to say "oh look, hypocrit... liar... Jesus wouldn't want that how can you say you love Him"...

For john
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
11,271
737
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Yes! The Church Age believe is justified the moment they believe the gospel. James is addressing the nation of Israel in the tribulation. That's my whole point.

Remember, the question James is responding to is: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul says yes to the body of Christ.
James says not faith only, but works to the twelve tribes in the tribulation.
I replied to part of this earlier, now I'm addressing the other part of your response now.

If a man has faith and no works to go along with it, he is a FAKE CHRISTIAN. That kind of faith, head knowledge, is the same faith all fake professors of Jesus Christ have, it is not LEGITIMATE faith, it's head knowledge.

That's the whole point of James 2, what demonstrates true faith - works. I can't stress this enough, James 2 shows the difference between real faith and head knowledge.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
989
1,127
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Absolutely....

IF we become FAITHLESS, HE remains faithful because he cannot deny himself.

JESUS gifts faith, begins faith, finishes faith, completes faith in us and we are sustained and upheld by his power......Judges does not believe these truths....he denies JESUS by his verbiage and false gospel of a self sustained faith which he peddles.......

I don't believe he even understands the Plan of Salvation. At any rate, I certainly don't agree with him period.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
4,076
4,805
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Again, can you determine who is saved by their works? yes or no?
NOT determining salvation... one does not even know what salvation is before one is born again.

James is speaking to show non-believers.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
11,271
737
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The nation of Israel was God's church. Israel was the assembly of God's physical people. Under the NT, the body of Christ is the Church. The nation of Israel was not part of the body of Christ. There was no body to be in yet. Many of them perished from God.

Grace through faith in what? In who? Did Israel in the OT put their faith and trust in the d,b,r of Jesus for their sins? That's our gospel today. It's specific. Words matter to God. The gospel today is specifically how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day.
I assume that you believe there are two churches and two different gospels. One church being flesh descendants of Israel, these are saved by grace and keeping the law. Then there's another church, those Jews and Gentiles after Christ. These are saved by faith only and no law keeping.

Abraham saw the death burial and resurrection of Christ when he was on his way to offer up Isaac. Christ dwelt in the church in the wilderness and they drank from that Rock. The Old Testament is FULL of prophecies of the death burial and resurrection of Christ. How can we say that they didn't know about it, and even look forward to it the same way we look back at it.

It doesn't matter if a person lived before Christ or after Christ, it is Christ and Christ alone that gives salvation.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
8,972
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So you do agree that God knew Abraham would offer up Isaac?
To be honest, sticking with the clear reading of the word...I'm not convinced. Has God chosen not to know certain things, future decisions, until man decides?

What about the Nineveh? Did God know that they would repent and in turn He would not destroy them in forty days? He declared He would destroy them in forty days? Did God lie, or simply change His mind based upon their response to the message?
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,259
2,048
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That's exactly the claim. We can justify others through their works.
You're speaking of the opposite.
🤦‍♂️


Peter denied Jesus -> lack of a righteous work and it was seen before man as lack of faith.


In james there is teaching AGAINST a loveless (lack of righteous works) to SHOW the love of God in us as witnesses. (His body)

You're either being dishonest or making a strawman out of confusion.


No you can never be seen before a brother or sister as "justified as a true believer" by works. Lack of love (which manifests as works) before man will cause you to be less than blameless. They can doubt your faith. If you are blameless, before these men your faith is justified. They have nothing to point at to say "oh look, hypocrit... liar... Jesus wouldn't want that how can you say you love Him"...
Your strawman is distorting your view of what she said. I explained it three times to you I believe.

The first you deleted some of my post and said bingo to one small bit. The next you made a strawman.. then again continued to impute beliefs to others.

No one is talking about judging salvation or being a fruit inspector. They are speaking of a less than perfect man judging you falsely based on lack of evidence via Gods love shining through you. (manifesting as works)


Believers know it is God who saves us.


That is a separate issue from appearing to not have been made a new creature before man.


You can not prove to me you are saved John. It is impossible.

But you can certainly behave in ways which make you look like you don't know God or love Him.


A member of Christs body which is VOID of any sort of work of righteousness, a loveless walk, would before man who can not see the heart.... seem to be a faker...

You are wrong. The claim is not what you think it is.


Read those quotes. You are imputing false beliefs to others and rejecting proper reproof.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
8,972
1,218
113
I assume that you believe there are two churches and two different gospels. One church being flesh descendants of Israel, these are saved by grace and keeping the law. Then there's another church, those Jews and Gentiles after Christ. These are saved by faith only and no law keeping.

Abraham saw the death burial and resurrection of Christ when he was on his way to offer up Isaac. Christ dwelt in the church in the wilderness and they drank from that Rock. The Old Testament is FULL of prophecies of the death burial and resurrection of Christ. How can we say that they didn't know about it, and even look forward to it the same way we look back at it.

It doesn't matter if a person lived before Christ or after Christ, it is Christ and Christ alone that gives salvation.
Lol, Abraham believed in the d,b,r of Christ? You know that was a mystery hid from everyone until it was fulfilled. Not even His disciples knew about it. We can look back and see the pictures, but only with the knowledge of the NT.

Nobody was "looking forward" to the cross. That's a man made doctrine. They were looking forward to a Messiah, a deliverer, but the cross was hidden.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
8,972
1,218
113
I assume that you believe there are two churches and two different gospels. One church being flesh descendants of Israel, these are saved by grace and keeping the law. Then there's another church, those Jews and Gentiles after Christ. These are saved by faith only and no law keeping.

Abraham saw the death burial and resurrection of Christ when he was on his way to offer up Isaac. Christ dwelt in the church in the wilderness and they drank from that Rock. The Old Testament is FULL of prophecies of the death burial and resurrection of Christ. How can we say that they didn't know about it, and even look forward to it the same way we look back at it.

It doesn't matter if a person lived before Christ or after Christ, it is Christ and Christ alone that gives salvation.
Only one way to eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. The word gospel doesn't always have to point to eternal salvation. That is evident. It's simply glad tidings, good news.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
338
57
28
No. Saved appart from works of righteousness. As scripture says. God IMPUTES the righteousness of Christ to us who are His and have been born again by grace through faith.
So you are born again by grace through faith, which I take it your faith allows you to see the Kingdom of God, spiritually of course. I always viewed 'spirivision' as interesting since it is written, in Luke 24:39, Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Christ Jesus is the substance of our salvation NOT our works!!
That bread definitely has the aroma of the Pharisees leaven with looks of promise.

While 'faith without substance' is hope seeing that hope with substance is faith.

Thus, it is written, "for we are saved by hope:" not by our faith since faith comes by hearing and hearing the Son of God.

Thus it is written, "but hope that is seen is not hope:" so if faith comes by hearing the word of God then for what a man sees, why does he yet hope
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
8,972
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Believers know it is God who saves us.


That is a separate issue from appearing to not have been made a new creature before man.


You can not prove to me you are saved John. It is impossible.

But you can certainly behave in ways which make you look like you don't know God or love Him.


A member of Christs body which is VOID of any sort of work of righteousness, a loveless walk, would before man who can not see the heart.... seem to be a faker...

You are wrong. The claim is not what you think it is.


Read those quotes. You are imputing false beliefs to others and rejecting proper reproof.
Agreed. But one can appear to have been saved, but is lost. One can go to church, pray, do good works and be lost. What we see in the flesh has no bearing on the reality. Likewise, one may choose not to live according to the Spirit but after the flesh, and this person is saved. We are never to judge a man's salvation.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,259
2,048
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Agreed. But one can appear to have been saved, but is lost. One can go to church, pray, do good works and be lost.
We have all said this and you have falsely imputed beliefs to the person you quoted.

No one ever once said here works of righteousness can prove anything. Before man or God.



What we see in the flesh has no bearing on the reality. Likewise, one may choose not to live according to the Spirit but after the flesh, and this person is saved. We are never to judge a man's salvation.
No one did.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
2,025
522
113
The circumstances are whether or not one believes in Him.
We know it's not that because 'believes' in John 3:16 is a present tense verb in the participle mood.
The person in John 3:16 is presently 'believing' in Him.
So the condition that varies must be whether or not the presently believing person will always be presently believing in Him.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
8,972
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We have all said this and you have falsely imputed beliefs to the person you quoted.

No one ever once said here works of righteousness can prove anything. Before man or God.





No one did.
Then explain James. The question James is answering: Can faith save him?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.