Not By Works

[blue_ladybug]

If we don't have free will, then how is it that God allows US to choose whether to follow Him or not?

If we MUST follow Him, and have no choice at all, that's not free will. To me anyway..

 

[Judges1318]

A contradiction to your NOSAS doctrine.

How so?
Are you confused?
Remember, I'm the one who says you can lose your salvation by going back to unbelief. We are to fear the consequences of doing that. Don't do that and you will live in absolute security of Christ's ministry on your behalf in heaven.

Your only purpose here seems to be to shove your cynical, NOSAS doctrine down everyone’s throat. You really seem to enjoy being an agitator and stirring up arguments. When are you going to finally get it through your thick skull that believers in the OSAS camp do not agree with you?

I understand completely that most people with Calvinistic osas doctrines are among the most hard headed and stubborn people in the church. I post here for those not already hardened in these doctrines of Calvin that came into the church in the latter part of church history.

 

[Judges1318]

If we don't have free will, then how is it that God allows US to choose whether to follow Him or not?

If we MUST follow Him, and have no choice at all, that's not free will. To me anyway..

I think the argument is that God assigns what 'will' you will possess before you are even born. Which I agree is not really free will at all.

 

[OneOfHis]

I think you're confused

No.

I made a point and you side stepped it.

There is no confusion unless you are confused.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Hi Judges, In my understanding, a TRUE believer cannot go back to not believing in God.. I don't know of ANY true Christian who has returned to unbelief..

 

[Judges1318]

@OneOfHis , this is what it means to be born again by the Spirit:

"6The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you...and you will be changed into a different person." - 1 Samuel 10:6

It means being a different person. Like when a drunk reforms his way and we say he's a 'different' man now.
This is what Nicodemus did not understand about being 'born again' even though he was a teacher of Israel and this verse is right in the scriptures he was supposed to be an expert in.

 

[Judges1318]

No.

I made a point and you side stepped it.

There is no confusion unless you are confused.

Why are you rejecting my explanation?
Do you still not understand I was simply using your analogy of an actual human baby?
If you want to compare being born again to being physically born then it reasons that being 'born again' can be ended too since humans can indeed end their lives by their own choice.

 

[OneOfHis]

Fact of the matter still remains. Any who is born of God, God promised to them that He will not blot their name out.

I disagree with your belief that even one of God's born again child will ever be in the lake of fire.

That's not my belief.
Born again people don't go to the lake of fire.
That place is for never-believers, fake believers, and former believers, not for born again believing people.

I know that.
That's why we should remain born again through our continued faith in Christ.


Says who?


You can if you trample on the blood of Christ by which you were sanctified in willful unbelief.
You can't have the safety of Christ's blood that you no longer believe and trust in.


Says who?

1. I don't remain born by choice, nor can I remain born again by choice.

2. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

"We are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

3. Those He has sanctified, He will also justify.

Hebrews 10:14

“For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

" And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."



4.
Romans 11:29
New International Version
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

New Living Translation
For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.

English Standard Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Berean Study Bible
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Berean Literal Bible
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

New King James Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

King James Bible
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Christian Standard Bible
since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[OneOfHis]

We can't choose to remain born again.

It happens or it does not. We are also kept by God's power. Not mans effort.

 

[OneOfHis]

Do you still not understand I was simply using your analogy

You were conflating the meaning of words and muddying the topic to prove a point.



We can't choose to be born, nor remain born.


It happened. (or it did not)



If we are born of God, He keeps us.

He does not forsake us.

Nothing present or to come will separate us from His love.

Despite what people online who wouldn't even admit to speaking to us before may claim.

 

[OneOfHis]

Hi Judges, In my understanding, a TRUE believer cannot go back to not believing in God.. I don't know of ANY true Christian who has returned to unbelief..

Amen.... we hear our Father....

Someone may be like peter and deny Christ in word, but all of His know deep down Jesus is exactly who He said and our only Hope even in moments of stumbling.

God knows too who He has started in, and He will continue in unto the day of Christ

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A passage to go along with my point made in Post #129,573 (page 6479, before it gets too far away, LOL):

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 -

Christ Our Foundation

(Isaiah 28:14-22; 1 Peter 2:4-12)

10 According to the grace of God having been given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, but another is building upon it. But let each one take heed how he builds upon it. 11 For no one is able to lay another foundation, besides the one being already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove [G1381 (related to the G96 word of 1Cor9:27 [--G1 G1384])] the work of each, what sort it is. 14 If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. 15 If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.

 

[EleventhHour]

Spiritually alive.
Born again is a metaphor for new life being birthed in your body just like when your spirit entered your body when you were born.
Eternal life is a quality of life, not just a never ending life.

"I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." - John 10:10


I think you're confused because you did not understand when I said you have the choice whether to live or not. I figger if you're going to insist on using the analogy of actual human birth to prove truths of the new birth (i.e. you didn't birth yourself, etc.) then let's continue the analogy and remember also that humans can decide not to live anymore.

Dear me, once again trying to undo the words of Jesus.

Death does not undo birth...the birth is a real one time event it cannot be undone.

Being born again similarly cannot be undone.

 

[VCO]

You were conflating the meaning of words and muddying the topic to prove a point.



We can't choose to be born, nor remain born.


It happened. (or it did not)



If we are born of God, He keeps us.

He does not forsake us.

Nothing present or to come will separate us from His love.

Despite what people online who wouldn't even admit to speaking to us before may claim.

You know, THEY really do not get this TRUTH, that you are proclaiming. They think you are in control of your own destiny.

What does Jesus say:

John 15:16 (HCSB)
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

When did HE CHOOSE US ?

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

IT SAYS: before time began.

Then HE chose those of us where we HAVE the Spiritual Fruit that would REMAIN, and NOT FALL AWAY.

They severely LIMIT the Power of GOD's Foreknowledge, and Choose to believe that their Human Mind, can NULLIFY the Will of GOD in HIS Choosing those who would not Fall Away. WOW, that IS what they erroneously Believe.

HE REALLY KNOWS EVERY DECISION WE WOULD EVER MAKE, Before before time began.

 

[Judges1318]

Hi Judges, In my understanding, a TRUE believer cannot go back to not believing in God.. I don't know of ANY true Christian who has returned to unbelief..

Hello.
That is the traditional Calvinistic thinking.

In the very early church only the Gnostics believed in osas, and the rest of the church resisted it firmly. Then the Catholic Church resisted it, too. It wasn't until the reformed movement broke away from the Catholic Church in these latter days of the church era that Gnostic osas was accepted in the church. That is my understanding of the roots of this horrible doctrine that's been working it's way through the whole batch of dough like leaven.

And, by the way, I do know a (former) true Christian who has returned to unbelief.

 

[Lightskin]

I allowed someone to get in front of me in the checkout line this morning. My salvation is good for at least a week. 😎

 

[EleventhHour]

I allowed someone to get in front of me in the checkout line this morning. My salvation is good for at least a week. 😎

Keep it up and we may admit you to the "super saved" category....

However, it is still a looooong way from the "super duper saved" category....just sayin

 

[EleventhHour]

Hello.
That is the traditional Calvinistic thinking.

In the very early church only the Gnostics believed in osas, and the rest of the church resisted it firmly. Then the Catholic Church resisted it, too. It wasn't until the reformed movement broke away from the Catholic Church in these latter days of the church era that Gnostic osas was accepted in the church. That is my understanding of the roots of this horrible doctrine that's been working it's way through the whole batch of dough like leaven.

And, by the way, I do know a (former) true Christian who has returned to unbelief.

Oh please!!

You saw the Holy Spirit leave his/her body?

 

[mailmandan]

Oh please!!

You saw the Holy Spirit leave his/her body?

Man cannot infallibly know someone else’s heart. Even Judas Iscariot looked like the real deal to the 11 remaining disciples but Jesus knew his heart and said, “he is a devil!” (John 6:70) Yet some people have their agenda.

 

[CherieR]

Oh please!!

You saw the Holy Spirit leave his/her body?

I think you make a good point here in your post. I am wondering what is the difference between real saving faith and that which is not? Can this difference be noticed in oneself? In others?