Not By Works

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lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
The apostle John said if we (including himself) say we are sinless we are decieved

If John can’t do item and Paul admitted he could not do it’s far be it from me to think I am better then they were. They were apostles!
Where did Paul admit such? Chapter 7 in Romans? You are mistaken my friend. The context continues in chapter 8 where Paul through the Spirit speaks of being delivered from the Law of Sin and death, condemning sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 7:23-8:4 KJV)
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Where did Paul admit such? Chapter 7 in Romans? You are mistaken my friend. The context continues in chapter 8 where Paul through the Spirit speaks of being delivered from the Law of Sin and death, condemning sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 7:23-8:4 KJV)
I keep wondering why a perfect, sinless person like yourself cannot clearly state that they are sinless?

Are you sinless?
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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His Faith.

What Faith is Paul speaking of?

... Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above; Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (through Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (through which the word is in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom 9:31-32; 10:4-8)

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

What if they choose not to believe, what if we refuse the faith that he imparts. To live in unbelief. Outside of the guidance of The word in our heart and mouth?

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(Rom 11:20-22 KJV)


So if Faith is from Christ through the Word is in the heart and Mouth What is unbelief? Here is an excerpt from the BDAG in regards to the Greek word translated unbelief. Bold emphasis mine

ἀπιστία, ας, ἡ (s. ἀπιστέω; Hes., Hdt. et al.; LXX, Philo, Joseph.; Just.; Tat. 32, 2; Ath. R. 60, 15 al.; s. Mayser 11f, 130)
unwillingness to commit oneself to another or respond positively to the other’s words or actions, lack of belief, unbelief ....

lack of commitment to a relationship or pledge, unfaithfulness (X., An. 3, 2, 4 et al.; UPZ 18, 5 [163 B.C.]; Wsd 14:25; Philo, Spec. Leg. 2, 8, Decal. 172; Jos., Ant. 14, 349) Ro 3:3 (JGriffiths, ET 53, ’41, 118).—M-M. TW.

So unbelief is A lack of commitment, an unwillingness to commit oneself to another or respond positively to the other’s words, THE WORD IN THE HEART AND MOUTH through Christ. And because of this they were broken off, and WE standest by faith. So Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not US. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward US, goodness, if WE continue in his goodness: otherwise WE also shalt be cut off.
I see your dogma like a treadmill ....running, running and going nowhere sadly.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT, NOT A PRIZE.
So being a free gift then what does a person have to do to receive it? I am not really familiar with a gift requiring someone having to ask for it, or some stipulation being imposed in order to receive it, so if salvation is a free gift then why is given only to those play fast and loose with the truth.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: John 15:22
So why did they confess to being sinners, either they were telling the truth and were or they were lying about being sinners because if he did not speak to them they had no sin. If one fears telling the truth then what would lead one to believe that it is going to get better by lying.
but now they have no cloke for their sin. John 15:22

Paul wrote that you are bought for a price, which I take refers to what Satan said about how a man will give all he has to save his life,

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3

Should one consider that what is written is true in the above quoted scripture or is it inaccurate?
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
517
85
28
I keep wondering why a perfect, sinless person like yourself cannot clearly state that they are sinless?

Are you sinless?
Why can't you acknowledge what is written in the scriptures?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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As you know we are in 1 cor 9 my friend. It has it's own context. The incorruptible crown which is the Gospel. Context
Of course 1 Corinthians 9 has it's own context and the incorruptible crown is not the gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

How do we know Paul through the Spirit is speaking of the Gospel?
1 Corinthians 9:16 - For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel. *Nothing there about salvation by works.

And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
(1Co 9:23 KJV)

A more literal rendering looks some thing like these.

(Grammar Usage Version 1Cor 9:23) And I am doing this (on account of) the glad tidings, in order that I may become a fellow–partaker of it.«

(Diaglott 1Cor 9:23) This but I do on account of the glad tidings, that a co–partner of it I may become.

And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it.
(1Co 9:23 LITV)

And this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I might be partaker of it with you.
(1Co 9:23 Modern KJV)
That I may be a joint partaker thereof (ina sunkoinwno autou genwmai). Literally, That I may become co-partner with others in the gospel. The point is that he may be able to share the gospel with others, his evangelistic passion. Sunkoinwno is a compound word (sun, together with, koinwno, partner or sharer). We have two genitives with it in Philippians 1:7 , though en and the locative is used in Revelation 1:9. It is found only in the N.T. and a late papyrus. Paul does not wish to enjoy the gospel just by himself.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/com...ictures/1-corinthians/1-corinthians-9-23.html

1 Corinthians 9:23 (AMPC) - And I do this for the sake of the good news (the Gospel), in order that I may become a participator in it and share in its [blessings along with you].

So Partaker of what?

The Gospel. What Gospel?

That is answered previously in the same chapter.

If others have a share of this authority over you, rather should not we? But we have not used this authority, but we endured all things lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(1Co 9:12 MKJV)
The gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

After verse 23 Paul then allegorically compared the Gospel to a race. Paul starts his next sentence with "know you not". He said this In relation to being a partaker of the Gospel, the Gospel of Christ. Here take a look.
Paul compared preaching the gospel to others (His ministry) to a race. Here take a look. Verse 27 - No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. Just as we read in verse 18 - What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
Earthly crowns are perishable, while heavenly crowns will be imperishable.

Paul in verse 23 said he did something for the Gospel's sake that he might partake of it. Then allegorically in relation to the Gospel of Christ he mentions those that run a race run to receive a prize. He finishes the thought with, "SO RUN THAT YE MAY OBTAIN"
How many times do we have to tell you that a prize is NOT a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit.

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph.
Strong's Concordance
brabeion: a prize
Original Word: βραβεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: brabeion
Phonetic Spelling: (brab-i'-on)
Definition: a prize
Usage: a prize.


Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Strong's Concordance
charisma: a gift of grace, a free gift
Original Word: χάρισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charisma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-is-mah)
Definition: a gift of grace, a free gift
Usage: a gift of grace, an undeserved favor.


Obtain what? The Incorruptible Crown.

What is that Crown?
The Bible mentions 5 crowns. 1. The incorruptible crown. (1 Corinthians 9:25) 2. The crown of rejoicing. (1 Thessalonians 2:19) 3. The crown of righteousness. (2 Timothy 4:8) 4. The crown of glory. (1 Peter 5:4) 5. The crown of life. (Revelation 2:10) Are all of these crowns the gospel to you? Do all of these crowns represent obtaining salvation by works to you? In Revelation 19:12, we read that when Jesus returns, on His head will be many crowns. What do those many crowns represent to you?

The Gospel. How do we know that? Because that is what Paul through the Spirit was saying to run to obtain. The Gospel that Paul just got done saying that he was doing something for the sake of that he might be a partaker.
Paul said run to obtain the prize, not run to obtain the gospel. You are thoroughly confused and it's no surprise after reading this previous post from you:

....It is the Gospel; the New Covenant. The ministry of reconciliation
The Life Death and Resurrection is the means to the Gospel not the Gospel....
:eek::eek::eek:

Then Paul after saying RUN THAT YOU MIGHT OBTAIN THE INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. STRIVING FOR MASTERY BEING TEMPERATE IN ALL THINGS TO RECEIVE THE INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. He says," I therefore so run" making it personal, bringing it back to verse 23 where he stated that he was doing something for the Gospel's sake to be a partaker of it.
You just don't get it. :( The gospel is not, "win the gold medal in an Olympic race and you will be saved." That is salvation by works. :cautious:

I therefore so run, not as uncertainly ( not aimlessly, i.e. not as one who has no fixed goal); so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1Co 9:23-27 KJV)
Paul is not suggesting here that he might lose his salvation, but that he might not stand the test in regards to his service and be (disqualified for the prize - NIV) which fits the meaning of the word disqualified in the athletic context. The prize is not the gift of eternal life. (Romans 6:23)

How does Paul run? He FIGHTS. Not aimlessly, not as one who has no fixed goal. But he brings his BODY under subjection, servitude to Christ through Christ. Lest by any means, when he had preached to others he himself would be a reprobate, castaway, rejected.
The Greek word for castaway (adokimos) in context here simply means disapproved. Paul is not in fear of losing his salvation, but is concerned in regards to his work of ministry in preaching the gospel to others.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Why can't you acknowledge what is written in the scriptures?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3
Perfect here does not mean that Job was sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time.
*Job had admitted his human sinfulness (Job 7:21; 13:26).

The word "perfect" which in Hebrew is "tam" does not necessarily imply absolute sinlessness. It signifies, rather, completeness, integrity, sincerity, but in a relative sense. The Hebrew term tam is equivalent to the Greek teleios, which is often translated perfect in the NT but which is better translated "full grown" or "mature," as I already explained to you in post #28.

In regards to man being sinless:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.

Romans 3:23 - For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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John did not say if we claim we never sinned
meh said if we claim we have no sin

Huge difference
Amen! 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

*Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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So being a free gift then what does a person have to do to receive it? I am not really familiar with a gift requiring someone having to ask for it, or some stipulation being imposed in order to receive it, so if salvation is a free gift then why is given only to those play fast and loose with the truth.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: John 15:22
So why did they confess to being sinners, either they were telling the truth and were or they were lying about being sinners because if he did not speak to them they had no sin. If one fears telling the truth then what would lead one to believe that it is going to get better by lying.
but now they have no cloke for their sin. John 15:22

Paul wrote that you are bought for a price, which I take refers to what Satan said about how a man will give all he has to save his life,

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3

Should one consider that what is written is true in the above quoted scripture or is it inaccurate?
I tell you I’m giving away free cars to whoever comes to my dealership. Most don’t believe me and don’t come.

A few DO believe, come and receive the free gift of a new car.
Was the car a free gift? Didn’t they have to believe and receive it?

Same with Salvation.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Here.....

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
i will add one more to it:

Romans 6:23 New International Version (NIV)
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,343
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@lightbearer if you want to keep copy and pasting your posts filled with error and worldly commentary on scripture


I can keep copy and pasting the multitude of posts which disprove and silly claim you have made.

You are spamming.

Your "argument" has no more substance than "nuh uh im right im right"


Fruitless and far from God.


You claim others weren't addressing points, I then addressed them all and even more from the same chapter.


You then copy and pasted the same thing.


You have no desire to further a discussion or share truth, just seem to want to annoy others until they agree with the nonsense that has been disproven?


Paul is clear. Clearly in disagreement with your false doctrine.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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Of course 1 Corinthians 9 has it's own context and the incorruptible crown is not the gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

1 Corinthians 9:16 - For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel. *Nothing there about salvation by works.

That I may be a joint partaker thereof (ina sunkoinwno autou genwmai). Literally, That I may become co-partner with others in the gospel. The point is that he may be able to share the gospel with others, his evangelistic passion. Sunkoinwno is a compound word (sun, together with, koinwno, partner or sharer). We have two genitives with it in Philippians 1:7 , though en and the locative is used in Revelation 1:9. It is found only in the N.T. and a late papyrus. Paul does not wish to enjoy the gospel just by himself.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/com...ictures/1-corinthians/1-corinthians-9-23.html

1 Corinthians 9:23 (AMPC) - And I do this for the sake of the good news (the Gospel), in order that I may become a participator in it and share in its [blessings along with you].

The gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

Paul compared preaching the gospel to others (His ministry) to a race. Here take a look. Verse 27 - No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. Just as we read in verse 18 - What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

Earthly crowns are perishable, while heavenly crowns will be imperishable.

How many times do we have to tell you that a prize is NOT a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit.

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph.
Strong's Concordance
brabeion: a prize
Original Word: βραβεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: brabeion
Phonetic Spelling: (brab-i'-on)
Definition: a prize
Usage: a prize.


Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Strong's Concordance
charisma: a gift of grace, a free gift
Original Word: χάρισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charisma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-is-mah)
Definition: a gift of grace, a free gift
Usage: a gift of grace, an undeserved favor.


The Bible mentions 5 crowns. 1. The incorruptible crown. (1 Corinthians 9:25) 2. The crown of rejoicing. (1 Thessalonians 2:19) 3. The crown of righteousness. (2 Timothy 4:8) 4. The crown of glory. (1 Peter 5:4) 5. The crown of life. (Revelation 2:10) Are all of these crowns the gospel to you? Do all of these crowns represent obtaining salvation by works to you? In Revelation 19:12, we read that when Jesus returns, on His head will be many crowns. What do those many crowns represent to you?

Paul said run to obtain the prize, not run to obtain the gospel. You are thoroughly confused and it's no surprise after reading this previous post from you:

:eek::eek::eek:

You just don't get it. :( The gospel is not, "win the gold medal in an Olympic race and you will be saved." That is salvation by works. :cautious:

Paul is not suggesting here that he might lose his salvation, but that he might not stand the test in regards to his service and be (disqualified for the prize - NIV) which fits the meaning of the word disqualified in the athletic context. The prize is not the gift of eternal life. (Romans 6:23)

The Greek word for castaway (adokimos) in context here simply means disapproved. Paul is not in fear of losing his salvation, but is concerned in regards to his work of ministry in preaching the gospel to others.
Crazy how many people have proved him objectively incorrect on multiple points, and he still posts already destroyed theories...

at this point it is spam....
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,343
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I tell you I’m giving away free cars to whoever comes to my dealership. Most don’t believe me and don’t come.

A few DO believe, come and receive the free gift of a new car.
Was the car a free gift? Didn’t they have to believe and receive it?

Same with Salvation.

Ahem.

Has this offer expiered?

I will leave work right now my good man.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
8,270
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Where did Paul admit such? Chapter 7 in Romans? You are mistaken my friend. The context continues in chapter 8 where Paul through the Spirit speaks of being delivered from the Law of Sin and death, condemning sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 7:23-8:4 KJV)
Being delivered from the "law of sin and death" in no way means Paul was proclaiming to be sinless.

Erroneous, crazy, foolhardy dogma I guess is the price to be paid for not keeping scripture under lock and key.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
8,270
8,792
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Why can't you acknowledge what is written in the scriptures?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3
I do.

And I also acknowledge what is not written in scripture equally as important....Job was not sinless.

You do know God showed Job his sin?
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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I am sinless and perfect. That's because I love orange kitties and I drink coffee daily..

My salvation is safe for a year or so.. Snarky.png