Not By Works

[FranC]

I agree. As the scriptures say, "the truth shall set you free". The lost just don't have any assurance; they haven't been set free yet.

But God knew there would be some believers that would doubt their eternal security at some point, after listening to teachers, which is why there are numerous scriptures reassuring us and confirming that we have eternal life and are no longer condemned.

You too Katy-Follower.
You must be a follower of Ariel instead of a follower of Jesus.
You two make a good team.

Wow. But your side is tough.
I serve a very loving God.
He's taught me not to judge Others, but only to discuss His words with them.

HE is the one who will judge WHO has the truth and WHO IS LOST.

Fortunately, it's not YOU or ARIEL, or DCON, or ETERNALLY GRATEFUL, gb9, ETC.

You should try coming over to my side of the fence. You'd really lik it here!!

 

[Katy-follower]

If you leave God, you are no longer considered a SON by Him.
Persons who do not have the Holy Spirit ARE NOT SONS OF GOD:

Do you think you could live a life of sin and STILL BE A SON OF GOD???

Ephesians 5:1-6

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things, THE WRATH OF GOD comes upon THE SONS of DISOBEDIENCE."

You said it yourself... those who do not have the Holy Spirit are not sons of God. Correct.

So then why do you contradict yourself?... you say that one who "leaves" is no longer a son, but yet they are confirmed as being a son when they have the Holy Spirit.

How does a child of God (with the Holy Spirit) then become a child of the devil (a son of disobedience)? The scriptures say believers used to be sons of disobedience before they were born of the Spirit... adopted into God's family.

1 Cor 6:9-11 describes the sinful lifestyles of the unrighteous (unsaved) and it is the unrighteous that will not inherit the Kingdom. It says to believers: "such were" some of you, but you were washed, justified, sanctified. For example, a prostitute that gets saved would never go back to being a prostitute, a thief that gets saved would never go back to a life of stealing. Once a person becomes a new creature in Christ they change and no longer engage in sinful lifestyles of the past. However, when it comes to a sin, such as arguing/getting angry at someone, a moment of pride or jealousy, for example... believers will occasionally slip up, because we're not perfect.. until we get that glorified body at the end, where we will be just like Jesus.


That Ephesians 5 scripture. Context.

The rest of the chapter....

"Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

For you (believers) were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”

See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God"


And then compare this also to Ephesians 2:1-10...

"And you (believers) He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once (past) conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

 

[FranC]

Thank you for the wishes.

Without revelation from the Holy Spirit, mine, or anybody else attempting to explain Scripture, is without fruit. I pray that revelation comes to you.

I am curious as to what translation you are using. The meaning of which, especially verse 20, is starkly different than every other translation I could find. Here are many translations, none of which say what you are saying:

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

New International Version​

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

New Living Translation​

"But I warn you--unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

English Standard Version​

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Berean Study Bible​

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Berean Literal Bible​

For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

New American Standard Bible ​

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

King James Bible​

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Holman Christian Standard Bible​

For I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

International Standard Version​

because I tell you, unless your righteousness greatly exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom from heaven!"

NET Bible​

For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

New Heart English Bible​

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English​

For I say to you, that unless your goodness will exceed that of the Scribes and the Pharisees, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

GOD'S WORD® Translation​

I can guarantee that unless you live a life that has God's approval and do it more faithfully than the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

New American Standard 1977 ​

“For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jubilee Bible 2000​

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

King James 2000 Bible​

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

American King James Version​

For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

American Standard Version​

For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Douay-Rheims Bible​

For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Darby Bible Translation​

For I say unto you, that unless your righteousness surpass [that] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

English Revised Version​

For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Webster's Bible Translation​

For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Weymouth New Testament​

For I assure you that unless your righteousness greatly surpasses that of the Scribes and the Pharisees, you will certainly not find entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavens.

World English Bible​

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Young's Literal Translation​

'For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Hi PennEd,

I really came back for you. A serious question. What Bible Study is for.

You're writing to get clarification on my understanding of Mathew 5:20
I'd like to make two comments first:

1. It is NOT MY understanding. Unlike those who read the bible and say they are guided by the Holy Spirit, I depend on persons much more intelligent than myself for my understanding. I find that different persons depending on the Holy Spirit will often times come up with two different concepts, so that is not a method I feel I can trust.

IF there are two differing opinions, THEN I search through scripture and pray and arrive at the conclusion I feel the Holy Spirit is leading to.


2. You've done something another poster here does, you've listed many different bibles for the same scripture.
Do you feel that each version says somethnig different? Are not ALL versions of the bible the same? They are. No need to list a bunch of bibles to get to the truth.

I have many bibles. I use the NASB for my reading. If I need clarification on something, I use the NIV. Most times the bible is very clear and to the point. It's important to know some facts about this book as a Whole to be able to exegete any verse -- this comes with time and Learning and being taught by a good mainline church.



Now to get to Mathew 5:20

Matthew 5:20 New International Version (NIV)

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The pharisees followed every law as perfectly as possible, and yet Jesus is mad at them.
The Seven Woes
Mathew chapter 23

Jesus tells us that unless we SURPASS the righteousness of the pharisees we will not go to heaven.

How does one surpass a person who is keeping all the Law?
(I thought I had explained this)

It happens by moving the Law from the mind to the heart.
Ezekiel 36:26

External actions are not important to God. The Pharisees were worshipping God in an external manner but did not love Him.
They could not go to heaven by being hypocrites. One cannot MAKE BELIEVE he loves God. God knows our heart. We must truly love Him.

This does not mean that we are not to obey God. He takes away none of His Laws. HE has created them, for different reasons, and He does expect us to follow them.

So the difference is that the pharisees were self-righteous. They were proud of following the Law, and only in their mind and not in their heart.

We are to follow Jesus. Jesus expects an internal change.
The Beatitudes in Mathew 5 tell us that blessed are the poor in spirit.
The poor in spirit are those that understand that they are totally dependent on God and look to Him for everything.
They understand how poor they are without Him.

So we depend on Him and on the Holy Spirit for our strength and our help.
Our love for God by heart and not by "show" keeps us in His trusty hands.


I don't know how to explain it better than this.
Would you agree?

(I'll check back in)

 

[slave]

You said it yourself... those who do not have the Holy Spirit are not sons of God. Correct.

So then why do you contradict yourself?... you say that one who "leaves" is no longer a son, but yet they are confirmed as being a son when they have the Holy Spirit.

How does a child of God (with the Holy Spirit) then become a child of the devil (a son of disobedience)? The scriptures say believers used to be sons of disobedience before they were born of the Spirit... adopted into God's family.

1 Cor 6:9-11 describes the sinful lifestyles of the unrighteous (unsaved) and it is the unrighteous that will not inherit the Kingdom.

Its not just the unsaved who can be unrighteous, its also those who by their volitional will do not remain in Christ and in His patient maturing process thru His forthright ways (Which is righteousness), and based on that premise continue to say "no" to God not allowing the fruit of God to be seen in their lives, living by the flesh and not by the spirit. Not remaining a bondservant to righteousness (a right relationship of love with God aligned properly by His leading).

"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

Do you see Our Lord is warning that it is possible to wear the label without having the goods; possible for a man to wear the badge of being His disciple when he is not? Labels are all right, but if we mistake the label for the goods we get confused!

 

[FranC]

You said it yourself... those who do not have the Holy Spirit are not sons of God. Correct.

So then why do you contradict yourself?... you say that one who "leaves" is no longer a son, but yet they are confirmed as being a son when they have the Holy Spirit.

How does a child of God (with the Holy Spirit) then become a child of the devil (a son of disobedience)? The scriptures say believers used to be sons of disobedience before they were born of the Spirit... adopted into God's family.

1 Cor 6:9-11 describes the sinful lifestyles of the unrighteous (unsaved) and it is the unrighteous that will not inherit the Kingdom. It says to believers: "such were" some of you, but you were washed, justified, sanctified. For example, a prostitute that gets saved would never go back to being a prostitute, a thief that gets saved would never go back to a life of stealing. Once a person becomes a new creature in Christ they change and no longer engage in sinful lifestyles of the past. However, when it comes to a sin, such as arguing/getting angry at someone, a moment of pride or jealousy, for example... believers will occasionally slip up, because we're not perfect.. until we get that glorified body at the end, where we will be just like Jesus.


That Ephesians 5 scripture. Context.

The rest of the chapter....

"Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

For you (believers) were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”

See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God"


And then compare this also to Ephesians 2:1-10...

"And you (believers) He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once (past) conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

Hi Katy-Follower

Finally, a really serious post from you.
It's unfortunate this could not have started sooner.
I do like to talk about §God and the bible.
I do not like to be called names and told I'm going straight to hell because I do not agree wth eternal security.

So, to get to your post.

Everything you say is absolutely true. But if you notice every one of the hypothesis you put forward assumes that the person is IN CHRIST.

This is where you and I differ, I believe...

The bible teaches that it IS possible to forsake God and leave His protecting hands.
You, apparently, believe that this is not possible.

If this were NOT possible, WHY would Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and all the Writers have exhorted believers to CONTINUE, not to FALL AWAY, why all the IF's, IF you do this, IF you do that.

If it were impossible to lose salvation, there would be no need for all these exhortations.

Do you believe it's not POSSIBLE to abandon God
OR
Do you believe you can abandon God AND STILL BE SAVED?

A serious discusson could only ensue if this were first established.

I hear that one becomes sealed. Yes. But they are sealed IN CHRIST. If one LEAVES Christ, they are no longer SEALED by Him. They are no longer under the protection of the seal.

Every single time you read about being saved, it's Always in the present tense.
The aorist tense is spoken of here, but it's a really difficult tense to understand. It does NOT mean that something happened in the past and continues into the future. This is a very simplistic view of that tense. I was told this by someone who teaches Koinè Greek, but you could look it up on the net and you would find very complicated descriptions of this tense.

Also, the bible is an easy book to understand. But you have to take it at face value. If you need Greek to understand it, there's something wrong.

So yes, all are children of God, HE made every one. But not all are Sons of God. And we remain sons for as long as we WANT to. God does not force us. He did not force us to get saved (unless you're a Calvanist and believe this) and He will not force us to STAY saved. That would mean that after salvation we lose our free will. Do you believe we still have free will after we're saved?

So He's telling us not to have fellowship with darkness. So if I ABANDON God, and go back to a life of sin and darkness, those who believe in eternal security will tell you that they are STILL SAVED! How could this be after all you wrote in your post???

You've put a lot of meat on the table. If my reply satisfies you,OK, otherwise, you could list a particular verse and we could go through it. (with no Greek necessary).

Oh. The only Greek word that IS very important to understand is the word BELIEVE because scripture tells us to "believe" so we do have to know what that means. I do believe I explained it as best I could in previous post.

Blessings

 

[slave]

Its not just the unsaved who can be unrighteous, its also those who by their volitional will do not remain in Christ and in His patient maturing process thru His forthright ways (Which is righteousness), and based on that premise continue to say "no" to God not allowing the fruit of God to be seen in their lives, living by the flesh and not by the spirit. Not remaining a bondservant to righteousness (a right relationship of love with God aligned properly by His leading).

"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

Do you see Our Lord is warning that it is possible to wear the label without having the goods; possible for a man to wear the badge of being His disciple when he is not? Labels are all right, but if we mistake the label for the goods we get confused!

I am not representing a pitiful, sickly, and self-centered kind of prayer and a determined effort and selfish desire to be right with God. This is never found in the New Testament. The fact that I am trying to be right with God is actually a sign that I am rebelling against the atonement by the Cross of Christ. I pray, “Lord, I will purify my heart if You will answer my prayer— I will walk rightly before You if You will help me.” But I cannot make myself right with God; I cannot make my life perfect. I can only be right with God if I accept the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ as an absolute gift. Am I humble enough to accept (consent to receive) it? I am saying, if I am, I will bear fruit, for He is in me to do so, as He leads me and guides me and empowers me to it.

 

[slave]

1. Unlike those who read the bible and say they are guided by the Holy Spirit, I depend on persons much more intelligent than myself for my understanding. I find that different persons depending on the Holy Spirit will often times come up with two different concepts, so that is not a method I feel I can trust.

IF there are two differing opinions, THEN I search through scripture and pray and arrive at the conclusion I feel the Holy Spirit is leading to.

I understand your issues with those who say they are led by the Holy Spirit whom are not, but regardless of that, are you saying you are, or are not, led by His Spirit discerning Him by your spirit? Or are you saying you discern the Holy Spirit by your intellect alone; and the experiences of others you feel are right?

 

[PeterJens]

How does a child of God (with the Holy Spirit) then become a child of the devil (a son of disobedience)? The scriptures say believers used to be sons of disobedience before they were born of the Spirit... adopted into God's family.

An observation about this construct.
The construct suggests we are made into eternal beings when we come to Christ.
And this new life can never die, no matter what we do.

Yet listen to Jesus

"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
John 15:6

Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
1 Tim 5:15

We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
1 cor 10:9-11

Life in Christ is real, but it is so real and so alive it is possible to destroy.
Jesus's warning is life is precious so treat it as such, it is not unbreakable.
Our physical life is also so constructed, it is fragile and can be broken, so
it is no big step to suggest equally our life in Christ, wonderful and blessed
can be broken.

But the only thing that breaks our life in Christ is sin. And if we have conquered
and understood the foundations we have in Christ, why would sin be our stumbling
block? It would suggest we have not yet become mature in Christ or know of the
measure of the gospel we have received, but still hold hopes and aspirations of other
things.

 

[FranC]

I understand your issues with those who say they are led by the Holy Spirit whom are not, but regardless of that, are you saying you are, or are not, led by His Spirit discerning Him by your spirit? Or are you saying you discern the Holy Spirit by your intellect alone; and the experiences of others you feel are right?

Slave,
Thanks for asking. It really is kind of difficult to discuss spiritual matters. That's why it's important to ask and clarify and words should never be taken for granted by the other person.

Everyone who is born again from above has the Holy Spirit,
1 Corinthians 2:15-16
1 Corinthians 2:12

There are different types of revelation.
There's general revelation. This is to the Whole Church.
There's personal revelation. This is God's word to a specific person. Sometimes when we're reading the bible some words just jump out at us. This is God speaking to us. (He speaks to us in different ways).

This is personal revelation and cannot be used for teaching. It's for us alone. Something WE NEED to know from God to help us with our daily lives. It can be SHARED, but it cannot be used to pass along for teaching.

General revelation if for everyone. But how do we know what general revelation is? Who do we depend on?

We depend on theologians of mainline churches who have studied the word of God fully. I cannot depend on a person who received some kind of message from God and breaks away from a Church to start his own.

Jesus said we are to be one and instead we have thousands of "denominations" if we count all the independent curches.


When I hear something, I Always check it with the word of God. Like the Bareans.
Acts 17:11


I don't care to hear that a person reads the word and is taught by the Holy Spirit. Different people come up with different ideas.
How are we to know who is right?

How do we know whether or not eternal security is right? Are we not all reading the same bible?

In this case, I use my common sense. This idea is a new one. The Church has lived for 1,500 years and then Calvin comes along and discovers eternal security. Maybe based on something Augustine said, who was the ONLY early theologian to believe this, BTW.

So I go back to the beginning. What did those who knew Jesus believe? What did Jesus say? What did the early believers glean from he teacings of the Apostles?

They DID NOT believe in eternal security --- so how can I?

I hope this helps. I DO BELIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDES US.
But some good theologians will help us too !

What say you?

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi Katy-Follower

Finally, a really serious post from you.
It's unfortunate this could not have started sooner.
I do like to talk about §God and the bible.
I do not like to be called names and told I'm going straight to hell because I do not agree wth eternal security.

So, to get to your post.

Everything you say is absolutely true. But if you notice every one of the hypothesis you put forward assumes that the person is IN CHRIST.

This is where you and I differ, I believe...

The bible teaches that it IS possible to forsake God and leave His protecting hands.
You, apparently, believe that this is not possible.

If this were NOT possible, WHY would Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and all the Writers have exhorted believers to CONTINUE, not to FALL AWAY, why all the IF's, IF you do this, IF you do that.

If it were impossible to lose salvation, there would be no need for all these exhortations.

Do you believe it's not POSSIBLE to abandon God
OR
Do you believe you can abandon God AND STILL BE SAVED?

A serious discusson could only ensue if this were first established.

I hear that one becomes sealed. Yes. But they are sealed IN CHRIST. If one LEAVES Christ, they are no longer SEALED by Him. They are no longer under the protection of the seal.

Every single time you read about being saved, it's Always in the present tense.
The aorist tense is spoken of here, but it's a really difficult tense to understand. It does NOT mean that something happened in the past and continues into the future. This is a very simplistic view of that tense. I was told this by someone who teaches Koinè Greek, but you could look it up on the net and you would find very complicated descriptions of this tense.

Also, the bible is an easy book to understand. But you have to take it at face value. If you need Greek to understand it, there's something wrong.

So yes, all are children of God, HE made every one. But not all are Sons of God. And we remain sons for as long as we WANT to. God does not force us. He did not force us to get saved (unless you're a Calvanist and believe this) and He will not force us to STAY saved. That would mean that after salvation we lose our free will. Do you believe we still have free will after we're saved?

So He's telling us not to have fellowship with darkness. So if I ABANDON God, and go back to a life of sin and darkness, those who believe in eternal security will tell you that they are STILL SAVED! How could this be after all you wrote in your post???

You've put a lot of meat on the table. If my reply satisfies you,OK, otherwise, you could list a particular verse and we could go through it. (with no Greek necessary).

Oh. The only Greek word that IS very important to understand is the word BELIEVE because scripture tells us to "believe" so we do have to know what that means. I do believe I explained it as best I could in previous post.

Blessings

Hi FranC

I haven't been active here just occasionally reading and posting occasionally. I just want to thank Jesus for helping you to write a great post. I am sure it will be a blessing to those that take the time to read it and ask God in prayer.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Nice try, but no cigar pal.....I have never judged salvation only the dogma preached by those who reject truth.......what is your excuse.....at least I have not called you a psychopath as you have concerning a few on this site....

There is a problem on the discussions here.
I will use an example to explain a point or put a context around it.
It is not calling the person I am talking to as this point.

Now a psychopath is someone with no empathy and cuts themselves off from normal empathy.
We all do this to a degree. You know this is happening when something close to home hits you.

A group from our local school went on a week trip into the hills. A coach crashed in that area.
Suddenly the question was, did we know those youngsters, and boy did I emotionally feel it.

But it struck me I hear of crashes or problems all the time, and I do not react strongly, yet by
rights the same innocent people are involved.

Now people with a bad intention, can take my words and then suggest I am being cruel and horrible
to others. It makes me wonder what is going on in their mind to try and invent such things which
were never intended, but could be taken out of context.

And on the scale of personality problems, I put up a list of the traits and issues people could suffer
from and it was amazing how many took this to be a superior I am better than you, rather than a
way of identifying issues that the Lord can help with.

The Lord has always been about recognition of problems, working a way out, and then walking in it.
This is turning on the light, seeing where things are, and using scripture, fellowship and the Holy Spirit
to guide us through.

Now what cc demonstrates there is much need and little recognition. We are forgiven sinners, saints,
walking in His grace, so let us behave worthy of our calling, Amen.

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
Eph 4:1

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi All,

One thing I would like to share with everyone is that we can't understand God's Word unless He reveals it to us personally. Why? Because....

“As the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isa 55:8-9).

God calls us to seek him through His Word...........

“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” (Isa 55:6-7)

“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you and ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” (Isa 29:11-13)

If any man wills to do Gods will and know His Truth God promises us......

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16:13).

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world gives, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” (John 14:26-27).

So in summary we can only know God as he reveals himself to us through His Word (Jesus). Gods Word tells us that if we want to know Him through His Word (truth) the only way we will find it is ....

1. If we seek him with all of our heart through His Word.
2. At the same time as we seek God we need to forsake known sins.
3. When come to God's Word we need to earnestly seek him with all of our heart
4. We need to ask God for the Holy Spirit and depend on him to be our teacher as we seek for Him through His Word.

Finding God's truth is conditional on obeying what He says in His Word. If we come to Him in any other way we will not find Him.

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31-32)

I am tired right now but I hope this makes sense to some. Been a long day

His sheep hear His Voice…

God bless you all

 

[PeterJens]

Nice try, but no cigar pal.....I have never judged salvation only the dogma preached by those who reject truth.......what is your excuse.....at least I have not called you a psychopath as you have concerning a few on this site....

Another observation. The problem with projecting dogma on to an individual, then condemning
them for it, is it is all an illusion.

Firstly what one is against has to be clearly declared or else it is just a straw man, a label upon
which all the vigour and animosity can be aimed. To then take this straw man and apply it to
an individual and then condemn them to hell and everything they share, is about the most
judgmental series of steps one can take.

Now my concern is the blindness involved in going down this road. The spanish inquisition did this,
convinced the evil people they chose were allied to satan, and torture would produce the
confession of their evil allegiance. So it is not a new series of steps, but it is something not in
scripture or anything to do with Christ.

So how is it linked to someone who holds they are speaking from God and have His Holy Spirit
giving them authority? It shows how easy it is for pride and conviction to make us get
carried away.

 

[Ariel82]

If you know this Peterjens, why do you constantly create illusions?

Another observation. The problem with projecting dogma on to an individual, then condemning
them for it, is it is all an illusion.

Case in point..why redefine the word psychopath?

Now a psychopath is someone with no empathy and cuts themselves off from normal empathy.
We all do this to a degree.

A psychopath is more than what you define and that you can relate to the term is somewhat distrubing.

 

[gb9]

Another observation. The problem with projecting dogma on to an individual, then condemning
them for it, is it is all an illusion.

Firstly what one is against has to be clearly declared or else it is just a straw man, a label upon
which all the vigour and animosity can be aimed. To then take this straw man and apply it to
an individual and then condemn them to hell and everything they share, is about the most
judgmental series of steps one can take.

Now my concern is the blindness involved in going down this road. The spanish inquisition did this,
convinced the evil people they chose were allied to satan, and torture would produce the
confession of their evil allegiance. So it is not a new series of steps, but it is something not in
scripture or anything to do with Christ.

So how is it linked to someone who holds they are speaking from God and have His Holy Spirit
giving them authority? It shows how easy it is for pride and conviction to make us get
carried away.

we do not project anything on you. we react to what you post. you use to much hyperbole and figurative language. too much talking about emotions. clean those things up, have much more productive interaction.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know....a work of righteousness is any work that is right......the bible is clear....NOT by works of RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to his MERCY has he saved us (past tense) this one verse alone proves that works that are right do not save.....

And that would be any work, not just works of the law..

 

[Ariel82]

Psychopath Definition May Be Different Than You Thought: 7 Facts About Psychopaths

According to Dr. L. Michael Tompkins, a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center, the difference lies in having a conscience. A psychopath simply doesn’t have one, he told WebMD. They will steal from you without feeling a twinge of guilt — though they may pretend to if they’re caught, so they aren’t “found out.” A sociopath, on the other hand, will understand that taking your money is wrong and may feel remorse, but it won’t be enough to stop their deviant behavior. A psychopath has less regard for others than a sociopath.

I just wonder why folks can't make their point without hyperbole or redefining words.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The way I see it is if folks don't have eternal assurance....then perhaps there is a good reason....perhaps God hasn't given them that Holy spirit seal because they dont have a saving faith in Jesus finished work upon the cross, his ressurection and ascension?

Maybe some folks just have a heathen's faith in following the Law to earn their salvation or a demon's mental assent of who Jesus is and what He did?

all of which follow a false gospel. and according to Gal 3. are still in danger of hellfire if they do not repent.

I also would add a licentious person who thinks because he said a prayer only, he is saved, but does not intend to change his life, Just wants a get out of jail free card. Which probably would fall under your third point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 6 disagrees with this idea.


(Hebrews 5:12-14)- spiritually immature/baby christians... "you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God"


Hebrews 6:1-6: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

For (because) it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if (hypothetical) they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame"

Context.

In other words, impossible for a believer to be saved, unsaved, saved again, then unsaved. Christ's ONE sacrifice was sufficient to save them one time, eternally. If salvation can be lost then Christ would need to be crucified a second, third, forth time? This scripture is one of many that confirms this is not possible. That ONE sacrifice was sufficient. A person cannot be renewed multiple times... that just isn't biblical at all.

The Holy Spirit doesn't keep jumping in and out of a person's body. No one can break that Holy Spirit seal

Amen, as apposed to the law (of which Hebrews was directed at, returnig to the law) which showed man had to have his sins paid for year after year. Men keep on sinning still. Yet Christ died once, and always is at right hand of God making intercession.

 

[Chris1975]

The typical bible is 2000 odd pages long. This thread is now on 655 pages, and each page has at least more words than 3 bible pages.

There are more words on this one thread than the entire bible. To our shame.

Yet, for all of that, the parties were not able to come to unity over this one simple topic, despite all of the scripture posted. No Ephesians 4v13 growth. How stale has this thread become. It's descending into man's philosophy Colossians 2v8. No more true edification.

Anyone being blessed?