Not By Works

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Sounds about right to me. God ordained all things as the all wise person must do. The alternative is to let an unknown force determine the future to some extent which is not the wisest thing, so God would not allow it as it opposes His essence.

But what does scripture say: Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,

Perhaps you have a verse saying God does not works all things according to his purpose???? Perhaps, for example, we are saved by our free will and thus God's plan in this area is according to our purpose. OH PRAISE MAN whose purpose is this area supercedes God's purpose or try to turn it on its head and say "God purpose is to proceed according to Man's purpose".
Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."
John 7:16-17


God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!

 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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North Carolina
Try reading with an open mind what Paul wrote in Romans 7. Paul wrote about his struggle (and therefore ours) before he became a new creation in Christ. If you keep reading, here is what Paul wrote immediately after... "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

It is unfortunate that the introduction of chapters and verses to the Biblical texts has confused so many. Read the Bible "books" in context, or better yet, in their entirety, if you want to understand what was meant by the authors.

I have read the bible through and through 3 times and I am on my 4th go around. I by the power of the HS understand what Paul was saying.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Willful sin is sin committed despite the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Only the perpetrator and God know when that s happening.
wifull:

G1596


ἑκουσίως


hekousiōs


hek-oo-see'-oce


Adverb from the same as G1595; voluntarily: - wilfully, willingly.

Total KJV occurrences: 2



willfull:

adjective

obstinately; Perversely self-willed
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,473
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North Carolina
I’m beginning to see what you mean after my recent discussion with her. It’s very difficult to reason with people who feel they need to resort to straw man arguments and slander just to win an argument. :(
If you are trying to "reason" with her, you have already lost. It cannot be done
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I have been watching a great deal of the back n forth here. But the question that keeps coming to mind is a simple one. Whether you are OSAS or NOT, who "Repents" when they knowingly sin?

And if you "Repent" when you knowingly sin, why do you "Repent?"


Every Born Again Christian, because the Holy Spirit brings Deep CONVICTION, and the NATURE of our HUMAN SPIRIT is to CONFESS ALL SIN.

If you have NEVER FELT DEEP CONVICTION from the HOLY SPIRIT, and you truly are Born Again, Your Day is Coming.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Does being born from above take free choice out of the picture? We who insist obeying God is part of the Kingdom of God humble ourselves as asked and find grace to obey are not the grace changers Jude writes of.
You just don’t get what we are saying Dottie. Free choice is for the unredeemed. Those born from above have come to the Lord for salvation from self-sin. God is the One who works within drawing us, we surrender, and our nature of sin that we are born into is put to death by an action of the Cross and blood of Jesus. And we are instantly changed. The results of this act usually is witnessing of salvation to anyone who will listen.

Paul says...It’s no longer I (our ego) that lives but Christ that lives in me.
 
May 22, 2020
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The constant proselytizing of Calvinism is TIRESOME.... case in point the post above this one.
Calvinism is the organization of God's word. A Systematic organization, though not perfect far exceeds an unorganized system.

Man is fallible, Calvin is fallible ... yet God gave us teachers for a reason. The wisdom of many is superior to the wisdom of the one.

The wisdom of trained scholars, though fallible, is superior the the wisdom of the lesser trained one.

We don't know follow Calvin, we try to follow God and one tool to do that is an organized, systematized, well thought out, peer reviewed method.

Tell us of your method of understanding God and how it is superior to the ideas I conveyed.

Aside: I repeat, all systems of understanding are flawed; but no system of understanding must be more flawed and inferior.

2 peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation,
Psalm 15:22 Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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It’s not important to discuss. Stone doesn’t understand that correction can hurt feelings and that a faith that is wrong IS weak already and needs to be “hurt” so that the truth is found. God’s correction hurts. But the end is a strong faith knowing one has the truth. It is not afraid of questions and does not call those who oppose nasty names.
Yes, I will agree that Gods correction hurts when needful. But, to say that God told you is equal to prophecy. That was your own perception.

However, I did understand your explanation.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Scripture clearly teaches choose whom you will serve. It clearly teaches we can change our minds because of external and internal pressures. It clearly teaches we ourselves must take care in our relationships including that with God to the degree we can. Scripture clearly teaches conditional promises from God.

Now one can hold a faith that doesn’t match real life. Or one can search for the truth, find that one is free from the doubts other positions have and can ask and receive every true question with confidence and peace. The biblical view that matches real life is rock solid and deeply rewarding. I’ll give an example.

If you are in a christian group for a long time, you will know people who are devoted in their faith as you are, maybe more devoted, who after some hardships or disappointments leave the faith. They say they used to believe but don’t today.

Now ES or OSAS have a complex answer for that which doesn’t match real life. None will apply that answer to themselves. But if you simply believe that they changed their minds because of trouble or the pleasures of sin as Jesus said happens, it’s easy. And one realizes one needs to take heed lest one fall onself. Good fruit. (Taking heed means continue in Bible reading, prayer, fellowship and responding to the Holy Spirit which not even EH says are “works.”)
Am not reading the whole post for this reason...

Choose whom you shall serve. You aren’t the only one who posts “serve”.

Slaves".........to the law serve. OT

Sons.........heirs of the house. NT
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Every Born Again Christian, because the Holy Spirit brings Deep CONVICTION, and the NATURE of our HUMAN SPIRIT is to CONFESS ALL SIN.

If you have NEVER FELT DEEP CONVICTION from the HOLY SPIRIT, and you truly are Born Again, Your Day is Coming.

Also the LORD DISCIPLINES HIS CHILDREN. If you do not feel like you are being disciplined, they I think you are not Born Again, because he does not discipline the children that are not HIS own, and have been deceived by the devil.

Hebrews 12:5-13 (NRSV)
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children— "My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him;
6 for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts."
7 Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline?
8 If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children.
9 Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share his holiness.
11 Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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And according to the Hebrew word for GRAVE, Solomon is indeed in HELL!
Perhaps he was in Abraham’s bosom. Two parts of hell. Wicked and bosom. Jesus released them and took them to heaven..
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,738
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Calvinism is the organization of God's word. A Systematic organization, though not perfect far exceeds an unorganized system.

Man is fallible, Calvin is fallible ... yet God gave us teachers for a reason. The wisdom of many is superior to the wisdom of the one.

The wisdom of trained scholars, though fallible, is superior the the wisdom of the lesser trained one.

We don't know follow Calvin, we try to follow God and one tool to do that is an organized, systematized, well thought out, peer reviewed method.

Tell us of your method of understanding God and how it is superior to the ideas I conveyed.

Aside: I repeat, all systems of understanding are flawed; but no system of understanding must be more flawed and inferior.

2 peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation,
Psalm 15:22 Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed.

Man, did you mess that definition up. That is the strangest explanation of Calvinism that I have ever heard. I only believe in 3 points of Calvinism. So 5 Point Calvinist, disown me, and because I believe in 3 of the Points of Calvinism, the Armenians will not have anything to do with me either.

I LIKE IT A LOT, BECAUSE THEY NOW CAN BOTH CALL ME A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN, because we evangelicals Buried that CALVINISTS VS. ARMENIANS ARGUMENT in the early 80's, so quit digging that dead body up already. REST IN PEACE! SO MUCH FOR ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE CALVINIST & ARMENIAN ARGUMENT.
 
Mar 25, 2020
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My reply is to the first comment. God saved us of course. We are saved by His grace. Our debt is paid in full. Although we are accountable for our deeds. We will answer for what we've done during our lifetime on the day of Judgement. It's like this. If you do something wrong to someone you know, example: father, mother, brother, spouse, etc. Someone close to you. You know they will forgive you. Because they usually do. But just because they forgive you and you know that it hurts them, you not only say sorry but not do it again. Forgiveness is there. But, you also have to fight the good fight for God's forgiveness. Not take his mercy for granted. Giving number 1 priority to God in your life as a Christian. You have to fight for reconciliation with Jesus. Avoid sinning against Him. Is what I feel about that.
 
May 22, 2020
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Re:
Eternally-gratefull said:
God said I will go and pay for sin, and these people who will come to faith and ask me to save them, I chose or elect to save.
Dude please

that is not what was said
It is exactly what you said. Now, 'I may have interpreted what you said incorrectly' or 'you may not meant to say what you wrote, but it is a direct quote'.


so stop being like those who consistently lie about others,
Why are you accusing me of lying again. It is a direct quote. You said it, that is what quote means. This is the second time you have accused me of lying. Did you ever think it might be just a mistake on my part .... or a mistake on your part?

Hey, I think you are a well meaning guy, but words have meaning ... stop the false accusations against me for lying. I don't think you mean to say these things out of malice ... I think you are unable to articulate your thoughts at times and this causes confusion and that is exasperated by inferring people are lying.

... ANYWAYS, if I made an incorrect statement about something which I admit I do though I try not to, feel free to state your opinion ... but stop inferring I am purposely being untruthful.

if you all want to prove you honestly want to discuss, to reconcile as They said, and open you heart (even if you disagree) then you will,stop,saying things which are not true about my faith and my words
Again, you take things too personal. People who disagree with you are lying or being disingenuous. Perhaps the problem is you say "A" and mean "B" and when someone reads your post and sees "A" and talks about "A" you think they are lying because you thought you were talking about "B". Or perhaps you posted about "A" and the person misinterpreted and thought you meant "B" and responds to "B". Hey, mistakes happen. Stop thinking the worst of people and assume they are lying. I assume you would never intentionally lie (I could be wrong, others don't agree) ... but I giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Aside: Most of my post was not directed to you ... I just used it as a jumping off point to discuss issues of "those who believe God elected them because they chose God". To tell you the truth, I am not sure where you stand as your posts have been confusing and I tired of trying to make sense of them.
Aside: Again, I think you are a good guy ... I apologize to a degree for this tough post ... but being accused of dishonestly rattled my cage.

Re:
Eternally-gratefull said:
God said I will go and pay for sin, and these people who will come to faith and ask me to save them, I chose or elect to save.

I am looking at this quote again to see if I made some sort of comprehension mistake.

Hmmmmm...
I am almost certain you believe God died for everyone (note: if this is incorrect don't accuse me of lying, this is my best guess and you can correct me if I am wrong)
Hmmm ... God won't die for everyone ... oh, I give up .... your previous posts on the subject left me scratching my head so I won't be able to unscramble it now ... I apologize for accidentally saying something that you think was a lie even though I have no clue what you are talking about ... I will assume you don't just throw out the word 'liar' casually or in anger