Not By Works

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Feb 29, 2020
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That light usually comes as naturally as breathing without having to think about it, yet that light may simply be letting people see how much you love the Lord with smiles of pure elation. 😊
If that light comes as naturally as breathing, then why is sinless perfection a bizarre thing to grasp for many?

Showing you love the Lord is not evidenced in smiles and elation, it's in keeping his commandments:

If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Smiling is a thing all men can do as a courtesy to each other; but not all men will keep God's commandments.

And often times a true biblical believer will manifest heaviness through many temptations that beset us (1 Peter 1:6); and the suffering that ceasing from sin produces (1 Peter 4:1).
 

Bbrdrd

Well-known member
Apr 2, 2020
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This is so contradictory... how many seconds does one have after conversion to do good works before there is no faith?
You think there's conversion without action? That someone can repent without changing? If there is faith it will inspire immediate action. A recognition of the need for Jesus and a seeking after Him. The very idea of conversion implies an action.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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You think there's conversion without action? That someone can repent without changing? If there is faith it will inspire immediate action. A recognition of the need for Jesus and a seeking after Him. The very idea of conversion implies an action.
I think this ......

Titus 3:4-8
“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
 

Duskey

Well-known member
May 31, 2020
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If that light comes as naturally as breathing, then why is sinless perfection a bizarre thing to grasp for many?

Showing you love the Lord is not evidenced in smiles and elation, it's in keeping his commandments:

If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Smiling is a thing all men can do as a courtesy to each other; but not all men will keep God's commandments.

And often times a true biblical believer will manifest heaviness through many temptations that beset us (1 Peter 1:6); and the suffering that ceasing from sin produces (1 Peter 4:1).
No one is sinless after placing their faith in Jesus Christ. No one.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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No one is sinless after placing their faith in Jesus Christ. No one.
Jesus Christ committed no sin.

Jesus Christ said this:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works... (John 14:12).

Peter walked on water (Matthew 14:29).

So many professing believers there are that have a form of godliness, but deny the power of it. (2 Timothy 3:5).

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not sin (1 John 5:18).

So you have a few of choices;

  • Deny this scripture.

  • Change the scripture into a lie.

  • Be changed by this scripture.


I choose to surrender myself to the word of God at all cost; forsaking all, in order to be changed into the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:24).

So likewise, any one of you that does not forsake all that he has, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33).
 

Bbrdrd

Well-known member
Apr 2, 2020
983
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I think this ......

Titus 3:4-8
“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
That doesn't speak to repentance and conversion, but purely to trying to earn salvation through meritorious works which is not what I am saying at all. You're arguing for a "faith" that changes nothing, that inspires no action, that is worthless. There's no hope in the faith you present and it's certainly far off from the call of Christ that bids us to come and die.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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That doesn't speak to repentance and conversion, but purely to trying to earn salvation through meritorious works which is not what I am saying at all. You're arguing for a "faith" that changes nothing, that inspires no action, that is worthless. There's no hope in the faith you present and it's certainly far off from the call of Christ that bids us to come and die.
How heavy is the cross you carry?

How many works keep your faith alive?

Rhetorical.. we have had this discussion before.

You do not believe that righteousness is imputed as I recall, so I am not sure we have enough common ground to even discuss.
 

Bbrdrd

Well-known member
Apr 2, 2020
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How heavy is the cross you carry?

How many works keep your faith alive?

Rhetorical.. we have had this discussion before.

You do not believe that righteousness is imputed as I recall, so I am not sure we have enough common ground to even discuss.
My yoke is light. At what point is enough belief? Is it entertaining the idea as possible? Kinda believing it but holding onto a little doubt? Being convinced, but still allowing for the possibility of being wrong? Being completely and totally convinced? The knife of "how much" cuts both ways.
And no, I don't believe that we somehow are fictitiously righteous without actually demonstrating righteousness.
 

Duskey

Well-known member
May 31, 2020
1,234
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Jesus Christ committed no sin.

Jesus Christ said this:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works... (John 14:12).

Peter walked on water (Matthew 14:29).

So many professing believers there are that have a form of godliness, but deny the power of it. (2 Timothy 3:5).

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not sin (1 John 5:18).

So you have a few of choices;

  • Deny this scripture.

  • Change the scripture into a lie.

  • Be changed by this scripture.


I choose to surrender myself to the word of God at all cost; forsaking all, in order to be changed into the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:24).

So likewise, any one of you that does not forsake all that he has, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33).
I am born of God and yet sin on occasion, as do you and everyone else. I applaud your love and obedience, but it is not perfect. Rejoice in God’s grace which is sufficient.
 

Bbrdrd

Well-known member
Apr 2, 2020
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Speak for yourself.

I'm not going to let my flesh rule me and end up in a state where I deny scriptures so brazenly.
You're actually denying Scripture by denying you sin. Read through 1 John again where it says things like " If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. "(1 John 1:8-9) and "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. "(1 John 2:1) From both of those statements it's clear John was not saying that upon receiving Christ we become completely and totally sinless, and in fact claiming such perfection is a denial of the faith.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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Read through 1 John again where it says things like " If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Read the WHOLE letter, don't just stop at your favorite verse.

I have no sin because of what Christ did on the cross. He gave us the power to become the sons of God.

Do not deny the power thereof.
 

Duskey

Well-known member
May 31, 2020
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Speak for yourself.

I'm not going to let my flesh rule me and end up in a state where I deny scriptures so brazenly.
Don’t be upset. You yourself admitted a few weeks ago to occasionally stumbling which is another way of saying you occasionally sin.
 

Bbrdrd

Well-known member
Apr 2, 2020
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Read the WHOLE letter, don't just stop at your favorite verse.

I have no sin because of what Christ did on the cross. He gave us the power to become the sons of God.

Do not deny the power thereof.
I deny no such thing, and I'm actually encouraging you to read the whole letter again because if you did you would realize that 1 John 5 is not saying that in this life we achieve sinlessness but that through faith sin will be finally and totally overcome. If you did read it all you would see the verse you quoted out of context is prefaced with " If anyone sees his brother [m]committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and [n]God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. "(1 John 5:16-17) To wrench out John's words to claim sinlessness is to deny the very letter you cite.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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North Carolina
No born again person is without sin . If we say we have no sin, we are not being truthful. Why? Because we have that spiritual side which is willing to not sin but we have the "human nature" side which is sometimes difficult to control. As long as we are in these bodies of flesh, we will sin; omission, commission.

Praise God we have someone who has covered our sins with His blood
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,383
1,846
113
North Carolina
Speak for yourself.

I'm not going to let my flesh rule me and end up in a state where I deny scriptures so brazenly.
So then you rule yourself to perfection?

1 John 1:8–10 "8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. " ESV
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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So then you rule yourself to perfection?

1 John 1:8–10 "8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. " ESV
I am still waiting for @Micaiah-imla to explain to us the difference between "not having sin" (in present) and "having ceased from sin", or stopped sinning, because he claims he ceased from sinning but denies the former or better yet avoids a direct answer, when proposed that question before. So Micaiah, what is the precise difference between the two, according to you, if there is any.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Read the WHOLE letter, don't just stop at your favorite verse.

I have no sin because of what Christ did on the cross. He gave us the power to become the sons of God.

Do not deny the power thereof.
You have no sin?

Only Jesus can make that claim.

What the born again believer has is the imputed righteousness/sinlessness of Christ Jesus received by grace through faith apart from works.

The fact you are daily trying to crucify the flesh, not let it rule you, indicates you know you are not sinless.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You have no sin?

Only Jesus can make that claim.

What the born again believer has is the imputed righteousness/sinlessness of Christ Jesus received by grace through faith apart from works.

The fact you are daily trying to crucify the flesh, not let it rule you, indicates you know you are not sinless.
Maybe he is saying that God sees him as sinless as a result of what Jesus did on the cross?