Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The Sermon we had was this morning, was all about the RIGHT KIND OF FAITH and the WRONG KIND OF FAITH.
Sounds like you are advocating the WRONG KIND OF FAITH.
Genuine FAITH is part of the GIFT OF GOD.
Here is a version simple enough for anybody to understand:
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.
-
1
- Show all
Wisdom tells me that "good works" isn't a physical action or feat to be viewed and judged by an imperfect and unrighteous audience, but a reflection of your faith in the truth that promotes the righteousness of God without effort.
Your "good works" are declared righteois by the spirit of truth. The same Spirit that declared Christ toe be the son of God with authority over all things by his resurrection.
Your good works come through your belief in the truth because belief in the truth will promote the love, grace, righteousness, and true character of God., Possibly even causing faith to be manifested through the word of God in the right persons life.
Good works are definitely not required for youe salvation to be complete or help at all, but your good works will manifest through your faith for certain. You absolutely can not have faith in the truth and not have good works. It's impossible, for they are inseparable as James claims. If you have no good works then your faith is dead, and is not true saving faith, probably because of belief in lies and not the truth.
Good works are NOT a requirement for salvation, but can not not be manifest through true saving faith.
Your "good works" are declared righteois by the spirit of truth. The same Spirit that declared Christ toe be the son of God with authority over all things by his resurrection.
Your good works come through your belief in the truth because belief in the truth will promote the love, grace, righteousness, and true character of God., Possibly even causing faith to be manifested through the word of God in the right persons life.
Good works are definitely not required for youe salvation to be complete or help at all, but your good works will manifest through your faith for certain. You absolutely can not have faith in the truth and not have good works. It's impossible, for they are inseparable as James claims. If you have no good works then your faith is dead, and is not true saving faith, probably because of belief in lies and not the truth.
Good works are NOT a requirement for salvation, but can not not be manifest through true saving faith.
In Acts 2:37, they were pierced to the heart because now they realized that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. *That is not saving belief yet.* They still lacked trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation and that's why they still needed to repent (change their mind) and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
-
2
- Show all
Amen! 'Lord, Lord' didn't WE demonstrates that these many people in Matthew 7:22 were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone. The correct answer would have been 'Lord, Lord' didn't YOU die for my sins, were buried and rise again the third day to provide for me eternal life. I trust in YOU alone for salvation.
Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) remained stained with sin.
*Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. *Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) remained stained with sin.
*Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. *Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
-
2
- Show all
They may have believed "mental assent" in the existence and in historical facts about Christ, yet they did not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they did not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and were not saved, which explains why Jesus NEVER knew them. Their trust and reliance was in works for salvation and not in Christ alone.
Workless faith (faith that produces no works at all) is not authentic faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) You need to keep in mind that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Workless faith (faith that produces no works at all) is not authentic faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) You need to keep in mind that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
-
1
- Show all
Did Jesus say that these many people in Matthew 7:22 who will say to Him on that day________ all died before the cross? According to your dispensational argument, that is the correct answer for people after the cross. So what did people believe before the cross? What was the content of what was believed before the cross? (John 3:15,16,18; 20:31) Regardless of your dispensational argument, Christ alone is the object of our belief, trust, reliance in receiving salvation "apart from works" before and after the cross.
-
1
- Show all
As I have already told Cherie, it was based on believing Jesus is the Son of God, their promised Messiah (John 20:31)
They need to believe that, be water baptized, and continue with the Law, in order to receive salvation in the end.
John 3:16 mention nothing about the death burial and resurrection, people read Paul's mysteries into that passage. John 20:31 is the correct way of understanding what believing in Christ meant in John 3:16
They need to believe that, be water baptized, and continue with the Law, in order to receive salvation in the end.
John 3:16 mention nothing about the death burial and resurrection, people read Paul's mysteries into that passage. John 20:31 is the correct way of understanding what believing in Christ meant in John 3:16
-
1
- Show all
So in John 20:31, we read - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. *Nothing there about water baptism or law keeping.*
This is where your doctrine goes off the rails. Believe + works for salvation = theology fail.
Regardless of your argument on the content of what was believed in regards to Christ before and after the cross, salvation is not obtained by baptism, law keeping, or works in general before or after the cross.
This is where your doctrine goes off the rails. Believe + works for salvation = theology fail.
Regardless of your argument on the content of what was believed in regards to Christ before and after the cross, salvation is not obtained by baptism, law keeping, or works in general before or after the cross.
-
1
- Show all
That is because we have Romans 4:5 that applies now for the Body of Christ, and the rest of Paul's epistles.
But those were not avaliable during the 4 gospels, unless of course you want to anticipate revelation. The Body of Christ did not exist then, Peter was a fervent law keeper even after Christ resurrected, as seen in Acts 10.
John was only talking to Israel in his account of Christ in the gospel of John, so its superflous to remind them to keep the Law of Moses in John 20:31. He is telling Israel that, on top of what they are doing with the Law, they have to believe Jesus as the promised Son of God.
It was the same reason why 1 John talks a lot about keeping God's commandments, esp the commandment to love God and to love others.
But those were not avaliable during the 4 gospels, unless of course you want to anticipate revelation. The Body of Christ did not exist then, Peter was a fervent law keeper even after Christ resurrected, as seen in Acts 10.
John was only talking to Israel in his account of Christ in the gospel of John, so its superflous to remind them to keep the Law of Moses in John 20:31. He is telling Israel that, on top of what they are doing with the Law, they have to believe Jesus as the promised Son of God.
It was the same reason why 1 John talks a lot about keeping God's commandments, esp the commandment to love God and to love others.
Acts 2 definitely lines out that baptism is required to receive the forgiveness of sins. Having to choose to believe is an action also. Jesus said, “ If you love me obey what I’ve taught”. We also see repeatedly throughout the Torah that the Jews were Gods people and that they believed in god yet many times those who lived unrighteously and disobeyed were destroyed. Their actions, not just their belief, determined what happened to them.
You’re belief in God does not save you anymore than your fruits of the spirit. We are all saved by grace and mercy and we are all saved when we hear our names called in the book of life. To be given that grace and mercy and resurrect to eternal life you must have belief and works.
Works Righteousness is the belief you deserve heaven because you’re a good person despite knowing we all fall short. It’s not the same mad saying we must pursue righteousness and truth.
You’re belief in God does not save you anymore than your fruits of the spirit. We are all saved by grace and mercy and we are all saved when we hear our names called in the book of life. To be given that grace and mercy and resurrect to eternal life you must have belief and works.
Works Righteousness is the belief you deserve heaven because you’re a good person despite knowing we all fall short. It’s not the same mad saying we must pursue righteousness and truth.
You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
Simply believing "mental assent" in the existence of God no more saved the Jews than "mental assent" belief in God of demons. (James 2:19) Living unrighteously in continued disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:16-19) Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)
Those who believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance Jesus Christ for salvation receive eternal life. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving belief in Christ, but not the essence of belief and also not the means of obtaining salvation. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.
It sounds to me like you are trusting in works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
Simply believing "mental assent" in the existence of God no more saved the Jews than "mental assent" belief in God of demons. (James 2:19) Living unrighteously in continued disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:16-19) Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)
Those who believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance Jesus Christ for salvation receive eternal life. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving belief in Christ, but not the essence of belief and also not the means of obtaining salvation. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.
It sounds to me like you are trusting in works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.
-
2
- Show all
All Jews needed to be water baptized during Acts 2 because Israel was supposed to be a holy nation, a nation of priests (Exodus 19:6) that will spread the good news to all gentile nations once Jesus return for them in his 2nd coming
Zech 8:23
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Zech 8:23
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.