Not By Works

[Skovand]

You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Simply believing "mental assent" in the existence of God no more saved the Jews than "mental assent" belief in God of demons. (James 2:19) Living unrighteously in continued disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:16-19) Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)

Those who believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance Jesus Christ for salvation receive eternal life. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving belief in Christ, but not the essence of belief and also not the means of obtaining salvation. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

It sounds to me like you are trusting in works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

Not at all. That’s a common argument but it’s not the scholarly interpretation. In acts 2, just like romans 6 and numerous other verses we see baptism related to when someone enters into a covenant with Christ. 1 Peter 3 really hammers it down by stating baptism is the plea we use. Eis means to obtain.

Later on I can focus more on the difference between power of the spirit vs “indwelling” of the spirit. Such as with the first gentiles. They were not saved just because the Holy Spirit fell on them and they begin to speak in tongues. That was simply opening the apostles up to fact the gentiles needed the gospel as well.

I’ve already shown in scripture where Jesus told someone he ever knew them despite them performing miracles in his name.

The laying on of hands is very different from baptism. We see this again in acts 8 with the evangelist Philip ( not the apostles) baptizing those who believed into Christ but requesting the apostles to come and lay their hands on them. When baptized they received the forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit. They then received the power when the apostles laid their hands on them. It’s what Simon the Wizard wanted to purchase.

 

[Skovand]

All Jews needed to be water baptized during Acts 2 because Israel was supposed to be a holy nation, a nation of priests (Exodus 19:6) that will spread the good news to all gentile nations once Jesus return for them in his 2nd coming

Zech 8:23
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Yet the Samaritans and gentiles all had to be baptized as well.

 

[Guojing]

Yet the Samaritans and gentiles all had to be baptized as well.

Before Paul, non Jews had to convert and be a Jew in order to be saved (exodus 12:48)

 

[EternalFire]

Before Paul, non Jews had to convert and be a Jew in order to be saved (exodus 12:48)

Do you consider the Ethiopian eunuch to be a non-Jew?

 

[Guojing]

Do you consider the Ethiopian eunuch to be a non-Jew?

I suspect he is an Ethiopian Jew, but scripture is unclear there

 

[EleventhHour]

Not at all. That’s a common argument but it’s not the scholarly interpretation. In acts 2, just like romans 6 and numerous other verses we see baptism related to when someone enters into a covenant with Christ. 1 Peter 3 really hammers it down by stating baptism is the plea we use. Eis means to obtain.

Later on I can focus more on the difference between power of the spirit vs “indwelling” of the spirit. Such as with the first gentiles. They were not saved just because the Holy Spirit fell on them and they begin to speak in tongues. That was simply opening the apostles up to fact the gentiles needed the gospel as well.

I’ve already shown in scripture where Jesus told someone he ever knew them despite them performing miracles in his name.

The laying on of hands is very different from baptism. We see this again in acts 8 with the evangelist Philip ( not the apostles) baptizing those who believed into Christ but requesting the apostles to come and lay their hands on them. When baptized they received the forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit. They then received the power when the apostles laid their hands on them. It’s what Simon the Wizard wanted to purchase.

We are saved by grace through faith apart form works.

Baptism is an ordinance but it does not save, and I can assure you many believers over the ages may not have been baptized and are in heaven with Jesus................ the thief on the cross being a prime example.

 

[EleventhHour]

The thief on the cross had NO works, he did have faith. He was saved by the grace of God.

 

[Skovand]

We are saved by grace through faith apart form works.

Baptism is an ordinance but it does not save, and I can assure you many believers over the ages may not have been baptized and are in heaven with Jesus................ the thief on the cross being a prime example.

The thief on the cross was not a Christian. He was a Jew forgiven of his sins while jesus was on earth just like Jesus did with the paralyzed man.

Hebrews teaches the new covenant went into effect at the death and resurrection of Jesus. That’s why romans 6 says that baptism is being united with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection.

Scripture is the standard by which someone must decide on what’s doctrinally true.

 

[EleventhHour]

The thief on the cross was not a Christian. He was a Jew forgiven of his sins while jesus was on earth just like Jesus did with the paralyzed man.

Hebrews teaches the new covenant went into effect at the death and resurrection of Jesus. That’s why romans 6 says that baptism is being united with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection.

Scripture is the standard by which someone must decide on what’s doctrinally true.

Yes let us look at scripture....

41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [d]in Your kingdom!”

And Jesus replied...

43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Are you stating the thief on the cross did not go to be with Jesus and was not saved?

 

[Scribe]

So what has Abraham sacrificing Issac have to do with Romans 4:5?

Abraham's Faith is used as an example. Many things in Abraham's story demonstrates his faith, before the Law. I get the intent of Romans 4 as well as all of Romans context. Baptism is an act of faith. It is not a work of the Law and when one tries to use Pauls argument about the works of the law in a context that has nothing to do with the works of the Law and call it a work they have left the field of Pauls reasoning and entered their own logic that was not intended by Paul. People do it all the time with the word works and they make no sense except to themselves.

 

[EleventhHour]

Baptism is an act of faith.

What does this mean?

Faith in what exactly?

 

[Skovand]

Yes let us look at scripture....

41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [d]in Your kingdom!”

And Jesus replied...

43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Are you stating the thief on the cross did not go to be with Jesus and was not saved?

I am saying the thief was forgiven of his sins. No the thief did not go to heaven or to the restored heaven or earth. He went to Abraham’s bosom. The grave.

We are all resurrected, living and dead, at one time. Not individually. But that’s beyond what I’m talking about right now.

The thief was brought up as an example of a Christian saved without baptism. That’s not what happened right there. The man was not a Christian, he was a forgiven jew just like then paralyzed man. Christianity did not start until Christ defeated death and ascended to the father.

 

[Skovand]

https://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm

 

[stonesoffire]

Matthew 1: 21 in the Amplified version gives the meaning of what a Saviour is, and does.

Going to start with the end of verse 20...

’for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit. Not of this earth, earthy, but of God. Heavenly. Therefore He is not like us other than His form.

21. She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus ( the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua, which means Saviour), for He will save His people from their sins (THAT IS, PREVENT THEM FROM FAILING AND MISSING THE TRUE END AND SCOPE OF LIFE, WHICH IS GOD).

Salvation is His work in us from start to finish. We are then a work of progression which scripture calls going from glory to glory.

God looks at us through our hearts. Our desires. We in our humanity look at the outside and tend to judge from this viewpoint. This results in man trying to please man. And this is religion.

We are most blessed if we have a ”father” in discipleship, who‘s heart is producing “sons”.

So back to salvation being the work of God from beginning to end.....what can we add to this?

Belief= obedience. If we believe, we will obey. When do we obey? When we are presented with an opportunity through our union with Holy Spirit. Led.

Then it’s His working through us. This is the works of God through the gifts given in Holy Spirit baptism.


Also in our life in God is the character of Jesus being formed in us. The Word producing Sonship. As we “see” Him, we shall become like Him, for we see Him as He is.

What I’ve written is just an outline of what I’ve received over the years of being His.

Inbetween these years have been many victories, many failures. All allowed by the Lord for I’ve learned something of value in every one. Yet nothing to be bragged about except

Jesus, Gods work of salvation. Given to us as a gift from Father to all His creation.

We owe it then to love one another fervently in the faith. For none of us have anything more than another.

Is this not so?


We all are given specific gifts and character traits to make up the one body of Jesus, our head. True?

So all together we flow as one work.

 

[dcontroversal]

So to be precise, works were necessary during Jesus time on Earth for the Jews to be saved. (Luke 10:28)

Its just that its not sufficient by itself, Israel needed to also believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah and Son of God too (John 20:31)

No....they were not and it does not matter how many times you try to skew the truth into two different gospels, it will not change the facts on the ground that there has always BEEN ONE GOSPEL......

Therefore we conclude that ABRAHAM WAS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEED/WORKS of the law!

Get that through your head....JEWS AND GENTILES ARE SAVED BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE!

 

[dcontroversal]

As I have already told Cherie, it was based on believing Jesus is the Son of God, their promised Messiah (John 20:31)

They need to believe that, be water baptized, and continue with the Law, in order to receive salvation in the end.

John 3:16 mention nothing about the death burial and resurrection, people read Paul's mysteries into that passage. John 20:31 is the correct way of understanding what believing in Christ meant in John 3:16

False

 

[dcontroversal]

So in John 20:31, we read - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. *Nothing there about water baptism or law keeping.*

This is where your doctrine goes off the rails. Believe + works for salvation = theology fail.

Regardless of your argument on the content of what was believed in regards to Christ before and after the cross, salvation is not obtained by baptism, law keeping, or works in general before or after the cross.

Amen......!!

 

[BillG]

No....they were not and it does not matter how many times you try to skew the truth into two different gospels, it will not change the facts on the ground that there has always BEEN ONE GOSPEL......

Therefore we conclude that ABRAHAM WAS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEED/WORKS of the law!

Get that through your head....JEWS AND GENTILES ARE SAVED BY FAITH AND FAITH ALONE!

Shame V29 was not quoted by the person you responded to.

Luke 10:28-29
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

 

[dcontroversal]

We are saved by grace through faith apart form works.

Baptism is an ordinance but it does not save, and I can assure you many believers over the ages may not have been baptized and are in heaven with Jesus................ the thief on the cross being a prime example.

Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Joshua, David and the list is huge......

FAITH alone saves in any generation!

 

[dcontroversal]

The thief on the cross had NO works, he did have faith. He was saved by the grace of God.

And he did not even quote the Roman road, 1 scripture or religiously hoop jump like a poodle at the Westminister Dog Show (as most religions require)......

LORD....remember me when you come into your kingdom!