Not By Works

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EleventhHour

Guest
Ok, now I can jump back in, because we are talking about something other than election and predestination. This falls under the category of Sovereignty.

Judas chose exactly what his nature predisposed him to choose. God did not force him to choose, he chose voluntarily to betray Christ. Yet God knew that he would, and Judas was chosen for that purpose. He was chosen to fulfill the prophecy “ my friend that eats bread with me will lift up the heel against me.

Just like God raised up Pharoah to power in order to demonstrate His power on the gods of Egypt, just like He allowed, (not caused) Joseph’s brothers to act on their evil intentions to sell Joseph into slavery, in order to fulfill His OWN PURPOSE of preserving and saving Israel from famine, just as Assyria was a rod of judgement in God’s Hand, yet even though they were an instrument in God’s hand, they were punished for their evil intentions, and just like the Romans and the religious Jews committed a great evil in crucifying Christ, YET they did what God had before determined and decreed would take place

In ALL of these instances they acted VOLUNTARILY and FREELY, yet in all these instances, they were doing exactly what God intended them to do!! And in all these instances, even though they were instruments in God’s Hand, they were still punished for their evil intentions.

Oh the depths and heights of the wisdom and power of God...

Undeniable. All of it.
Well if God determined it, then it could not have been voluntarily and freely... imho

Instead I would rephrase and state...they were doing exactly what God knew they would do!!

God does not exist in time.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Well if God determined it, then it could not have been voluntarily and freely... imho

Instead I would rephrase and state...they were doing exactly what God knew they would do!!

God does not exist in time.
Sometimes God determines to ALLOW certain things, sometimes He determines to restrain things, and sometimes He directly causes things. But He is 100 percent in control 100 percent of the time.

I agree with the rest. ( second and third lines ). Add the fact that God works all things according to the purpose of His Will, and we would be in agreement.

In other words, God not only knows what will happen, but He also turns it withersoever way He pleases to accomplish His overarching purpose. A purpose that we do not fully comprehend, but we know it is good and perfect, because God is Good and Perfect.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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I do not believe God predestines........ as in God selects group X and not group Y,

however, yes that is what I am I saying....... if one does believe He selects group X and not group Y then yes it does not necessitate irresistible grace.

Yet we have plenty of evidence from scripture that grace can be resisted.
To an extent, I do believe in irresistible grace. I believe more in the sense of someone who is so drawn to Christ, who becomes so enamoured with Jesus, overcome with the mercy of God through the cross. So irresistible grace in the sense of a grace that captivates the individual to desire Jesus and follow him. I don't think that everyone comes to Christ in the same way.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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To an extent, I do believe in irresistible grace. I believe more in the sense of someone who is so drawn to Christ, who becomes so enamoured with Jesus, overcome with the mercy of God through the cross. So irresistible grace in the sense of a grace that captivates the individual to desire Jesus and follow him. I don't think that everyone comes to Christ in the same way.
The way the Father draws to the Son is powerful indeed. The way it happened with me, it didn’t feel like a decision. More like instant heart change

But I do acknowledge it’s not always the same for everybody.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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The way the Father draws to the Son is powerful indeed. The way it happened with me, it didn’t feel like a decision. More like instant heart change

But I do acknowledge it’s not always the same for everybody.
I believed on Jesus at a young age though with the struggle I have had with assurance of salvation, I cannot know for sure when exactly I received him. Sometimes I may still have doubts that arise which may very well be a part of the OCD. I don't have all the answers. Yet Jesus is Savior. He is my Savior, my answer, my wisdom, my all in all. He is enough. Both his words and actions have been a comfort to me. Thinking of how he did not turn people away on earth but healed the people and how he won't turn me away either for my own spiritual needs. Indeed Jesus is the Savior. He doesn't need any
Co-saviors.;) Jesus Christ alone is Savior and Lord.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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I believed on Jesus at a young age though with the struggle I have had with assurance of salvation, I cannot know for sure when exactly I received him. Sometimes I may still have doubts that arise which may very well be a part of the OCD. I don't have all the answers. Yet Jesus is Savior. He is my Savior, my answer, my wisdom, my all in all. He is enough. Both his words and actions have been a comfort to me. Thinking of how he did not turn people away on earth but healed the people and how he won't turn me away either for my own spiritual needs. Indeed Jesus is the Savior. He doesn't need any
Co-saviors.;) Jesus Christ alone is Savior and Lord.
Amen. I thank God for you.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
1 John 5: 12 He who has the Son has [a]life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, [b]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


1. we can know we have eternal life
2. if we can know it, then we have it, it is not a future thing only
3. if I have eternal life, as Jesus said in John 6, I will never die
4. this is true of those who are in Christ, and it is recieved by faith not by works
5. knowledge of this FACT is the power to help us continue to trust god. Which means if we doubt we are secure in Christ (nosas) our ability to continue to believe is weakened, and powerless
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amen. That we may continue to abide in the Vine. The Bible is clear on what will happen if we do not.
You missed the whole point

he said he wrote those things so we may KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and by this continue to believe

your denying we have eternal life, thus denying the power that keeps us from falling
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
We do have Eternal Life, PTL! Let us not be as Lot's wife and neglect it. We are accountable for having seen and tasted.
If you can lose eternal life it’s not eternal

the problem is people make it into some sort of religious term and do not interpret it for what it is, it literally means will live forever, another way to say it is to never die,

jesus promised both in John 6 to those who eat the bread from heave, Ie have faith in the words the spirit of Eternal life based on the spilling of his flesh and blood
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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will live forever, another way to say it is to never die
We will all live forever. This will be a very unfortunate situation for some some. Remember what Paul said;

1 Corinthians
9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

God giveth the strength, but we must not neglect it. This speaks of spiritual warfare, not good works.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
We will all live forever. This will be a very unfortunate situation for some some. Remember what Paul said;

1 Corinthians
9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

God giveth the strength, but we must not neglect it. This speaks of spiritual warfare, not good works.
those who go to hell are not alive

they suffer the second death, they never were born again. So not it is not unfortunate for those who have eternal life,

paul is not saying we can lose salvation, he did not preach conditional life

it saddens me that you think you are so righteous you have or can earn your eternal life.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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it saddens me that you think you are so righteous you have or can earn your eternal life.
Jesus is so righteous that He earned it for me at the Cross. I am so appreciative that I shall seek to live for Him and strive to be holy for the rest of my days. He is worthy of this. He will give me strength so long as I abide in the Vine. You may try to accuse me of self righteousness and try to put words in my mouth all day if you like. I am resolved to follow my Saviour.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus is so righteous that He earned it for me at the Cross. I am so appreciative that I shall seek to live for Him and strive to be holy for the rest of my days. He is worthy of this. He will give me strength so long as I abide in the Vine. You may try to accuse me of self righteousness and try to put words in my mouth all day if you like. I am resolved to follow my Saviour.
You claim to follow him, but from what I see you do not trust him, your faith is in your ability to abide, if you fail god will just kick you out

god told me he will never let me go or leave nor forsake me. He made the same promise to you, and even promised that if you recieve him you will never die, and have eternal life, given the seal of the spirit as a guarantee.

you can say I put words in your mouth all you want, your leading people away from God in your works based theology not to them your putting people under law and telling them to reject grace
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus is so righteous that He earned it for me at the Cross.
They why do you not totally trust he who began a good work to complete it until the day of Christ? Why do you insist that those who he perfected forever are in a state of being sanctified, why are you claiming that someone who”clams“ to be part of us, can walk away in unbelief, and yet has ever been a part of us, when John said they never were,

I agree, Jesus did pay it all, so no matter what state I am here on earth, Ihave Been perfected forever, if God removed his righteousness from me because of something I did or did not do that makes him a liar

I am so appreciative that I shall seek to live for Him and strive to be holy for the rest of my days. He is worthy of this. He will give me strength so long as I abide in the Vine. You may try to accuse me of self righteousness and try to put words in my mouth all day if you like. I am resolved to follow my Saviour.
you can try your best to live a holy and righteous life but all of that work will not get yu any where near to the point where you earn salvation, or no longer need Gods Grace, you will always be in a state of sanctification until the day yu are glorified,

someone has convinced you can somehow fall short, and lose or give up the right to have salvation, when you continually every day fall short already. As James said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in even one point, we are guilty.

daniel was a man to whom we are never told of one sin, yet when he say a heavenly being he fell in fear because he knew he was unworthy,

it’s good to be grateful for what God did look at my screen name, but that where our focus needs to be,

that was johns point, I write these thing to yu so you may know yu have life eternal (yu will live forever) and by this knowledge continue to believe

you want me to believe it is my continued faith that allows me to keep eternal life that’s backwards, it is our security in Christ that keeps us,
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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1 John 5: 12 He who has the Son has [a]life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, [b]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


1. we can know we have eternal life
2. if we can know it, then we have it, it is not a future thing only
3. if I have eternal life, as Jesus said in John 6, I will never die
4. this is true of those who are in Christ, and it is recieved by faith not by works
5. knowledge of this FACT is the power to help us continue to trust god. Which means if we doubt we are secure in Christ (nosas) our ability to continue to believe is weakened, and powerless
How do you interpret 1 John? I have read through it before and don't think I understand it all. Certain things sound like they could be applied in a subjective way such as doing righteousness.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Yes.

No.

Just keep abiding in the Vine and you will be fine. God bless you.
Those who abide in Christ are already in Him , and those who do not abide are the unbelievers...
Christ is our security , once we are saved , we are always saved...
We have not only the hand of Jesus wrapped around us , but we also have the Fathers hand wrapped around us , we are 100% saved...
...xox...