Not By Works

[willybob]

Fran we define works differently and until you bother to acknowledge the difference between fruit, obedience and good works, then it's pointless for us to try and have a conversation.

Personally, I am here to talk to people, who actually listen and respond back in a Christlike manner, even if we disagree....not perform for an unseen audience.

knowing this first; understand the meaning of the word "works/deeds" in the contexts in which it is written in the various places in scripture...the term works, has different applications depending upon context.... many times, especially when the apostle Paul wrote of RELIGIOUS WORKS, which he called "works of the law", of which cannot save....Christianity is full of religious works that they perceive can save, such as you do "this, this, this, and this", all of which do nothing to curb the sinful indulgences of the flesh, all the while being blinded to the works of faith that can save the soul from iniquity and ruination...

there are works of the law (ordinances> religious ceremonies, washings, new moons, feast days, circumcision, etc.) all of these works cannot save you, and these ordinances were nailed to the cross just as the apostle Paul said in Colossians...HOWEVER, "the works of faith" (obedience from the heart through sincerity) does save, and does purge one from the sinful desires of the flesh...be blessed in your searching and rightly dividing the word of truth..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

there are those that USE scripture, and there are those who ARE scripture..Know the difference between the two..

The easy grace gospel is from the bottomless pit of man’s imagination (the image of the beast), Satan’s prison…He has been loosed upon them in the little season of this generation of flesh pleasers.

easy grace is not so easy, Proven by the fact the world rejects it. In fact, it is not easy, because it is the last theing the flesh would ever accept. The flesh will never bow down to admit it is hopeless and in need of being saved by another, It will continue to try to save itself until it dies..

Not to mention the people who take Grace, and add works, in order to fight what they deem easy grace, and end up condemning themselves with a false gospel.

 

[Meggido]

Completely wrong. This is a fundamental error in basic theology.

Jesus described salvation as a new birth. Single one time event. Sanctification is a journey a lifetime journey with many faltering steps.


You would teach and yet you are the one who needs to know the truth. Romanism cannot save and only leads to destruction.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I think it needs to be stated that we also have positional sanctification that comes with Positional imputed righteousness.

Ongoing sanctification is life long, but we are made positional holy & righteous at conversion..

 

[willybob]

You should be warning people of yourself pal....Your very message reeks of ignorance and goes about to establish your own righteousness while trampling under foot Jesus, grace, mercy and eternal life based upon faith....

your foolish responses reveal the intense rebellion within your heart, and it comes out in the words you speak. It cant be hidden....

 

[dcontroversal]

This says it all folks.

Security in Christ is a bad thing, (then again, he did say the cross is insufficent (not enough) so we shoudl all Know he thought this.

anyway, There you have it,, I guess the only thing is security in self.. Of Course peter will deny it, but what else is left.

And he judges Grace777 and others of sin, when he does not even know Grace777 or the rest of us, Yet he refuses to repent of his sins which he commits every day.

Again, Its there for all to see..

And thus nothing else he said in this post is worth reading.

and the imputed righteousness of Christ is a neat little trick that does not work.....his very words belie who actually leads him....the Holy Spirit of God would not lead a man to say the following...

The cross is not enough
The imputed righteousness of Christ is a neat little trick that does not work
Lost in the security of Christ

 

[eternally-gratefull]

many perceive they will present their filthy rags to God on judgement day. Do you?

She will stand in front of God based solely on the cross.. As will most of us.

Your the one who thinks he will stand and give him his works (filthy rags) and God will say, Ok Willy, I will take those works (filthy rags) as payment for your sin, Well done, enter in..

NOT!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe I'll be brave and start one?

count me in

 

[willybob]

easy grace is not so easy, Proven by the fact the world rejects it. In fact, it is not easy, because it is the last theing the flesh would ever accept. The flesh will never bow down to admit it is hopeless and in need of being saved by another, It will continue to try to save itself until it dies..

Not to mention the people who take Grace, and add works, in order to fight what they deem easy grace, and end up condemning themselves with a false gospel.

can you biblically define "grace"? if so then we might be able to have a conversation...happy hunting

 

[Meggido]

So teach me.
What is Sanctification ?

The process of becoming Holy. We are positional made totally holy at conversion, but there is ongoing sanctification

 

[Ariel82]

Sometimes I wish everyone would take a few classes on logic and debate.....

The Most Common Logical Fallacies

We see these alot also...

Affirming the Consequent
This is a fairly difficult fallacy to understand or spot. It is categorical in nature and, essentially, means reversing an argument, or putting the cart before the horse, meaning reversing or confusing the general category with the specific/sub-category. Note that in this fallacy the premises/reasons are actually correct or valid; the error is found between the premises and conclusion. Usually, the error occurs because we incorrectly assume that the Premise was a sufficient condition, when in fact it was only a necessary condition (one of many conditions) necessary to prove the conclusion.

Fallacy Ex:
Premise: Ducks are birds.
Premise: Ducks swim in the water.
Premise: Chickens are birds.
False Conclusion: Chickens swim in the water.
(Affirming The Consequent Fallacy: not all birds swim in water; swimming is neither a necessary or sufficient condition to be the thing "bird")

Red Herring
This generally refers to changing the subject mid-debate, so that we start arguing about a tangential topic rather than the real or original issue.

Semantics or Equivocation (also, Splitting Hairs, Playing With Words, or Using Legalisms)
Using the inherent ambiguity of language to distract from the actual ideas or issues, or deliberately rephrasing the opposing argument incorrectly, and then addressing that rephrasing.


Slippery Slope
Arguing from the perspective that one change inevitably will lead to another.


Straw Man
One side of the argument is presented as so extreme that no one will agree with it. Often this is done by referring to the exception, rather than the rule, and inferring that the exception is the rule.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because the teaching of conditional salvation, no eternal security, a salvation that requires works and must be maintained by us actually came from the catholic church first!! It's a catholic doctrine. This teaching crept its way into the protestant churches and has been embraced by many churches unfortunately. Infiltration.

The catholic church is Babylonian, just that some of the teachings of Rome have crept into the protestant churches.

Eternal security is not a new doctrine made up by men. It's confirmed in the scriptures. Just that many are following the catholic teachings and not believing what the scriptures say.

By the way, the catholic church even lists eternal security as an anathema.

I think it was first started by Cain, Went into most of the worlds religion, Infiltrated into the jewish religion, Come into the church first as jews added works of the law to grace, and then came from pagan influence through rome when they added sacramental works to salvation.

either way, It has been satans lie since the beginning

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seems to me that the ones who do the most works,
don't want to say the word "works."

if we would talk about sanctification and christian growth we would be talking about all kinds of works.

But we are talking about how one gets to heaven, Works according to scripture is a bad word in that context. It leads people to hell. as they try to replace Gods imputed rightousness, with their own self righteousness.

 

[willybob]

count me in

its very simple; nowhere in the text can one find the transfer of virtues....sin is imputed/reckoned to those that do iniquity. the soul that sinneth he shall die, Ezek 18... And righteousness is imputed/reckoned to those that do what is right, [TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"][/TD]
[TD]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3-7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

anyone telling you different is a deceiver, rather it be knowingly or unknowingly....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James says that WITHOUT WORKS FAITH IS DEAD.
James 2:17, 20


What does dead faith mean to you?

To regular normal folk it means DEAD = NON EXISTANT. NOT ALIVE. DEAD AS A DOOR NAIL.

What does it mean to "your side"?

How do you twist that one around to mean something it does not?

DEAD MEANS DEAD.

Aww, thank you, You just said what I have been saying since day one

A dead faith is a lifeless faith, dead, has no power


So can a dead faith save anyone? Of course not, it will never work either, It will do what it has faith in.

if its faith is in religious works, it will act all religious, if its faith is in the law. it will try to be morally good. If its faith is in a church, it will follow that church blindly in all areas of that church which could not be wrong

If its faith is in God, it will do what God asks, and study to show himself approved, Learn to love as God loved, and learn to serve others more, and self less.

Now here is the question.

The religious, the law follower, the church follower, and the follower of God, They all appear to do the same works. Yet only one is saved, COuld you tell which one just by looking?

 

[dcontroversal]

your foolish responses reveal the intense rebellion within your heart, and it comes out in the words you speak. It cant be hidden....

Look SPONGE...go peddle your sinless perfectionist working for false gospel someplace else.....you have consistently proven that your view falls way short of believable and is akin to a man playing a barrel organ on the street with a dancing monkey.... the following is a fine example of my description of your shenanigans and my response to it

Originally Posted by willybob

those that USE scripture are the posers, antichrist, and those that ARE scripture are the worthy, HIS obedient servants, of the which is our reasonable sacrifice and service said Paul in Romans, 21-1 which aligns with what Solomon said in Eccl. 12-13....

many will wrestle with the text like the apostle Peter said they would, trying to twist it in form by making provisions for fleshly and worldly endeavors . But Paul said make no provision for the flesh.


MY RESPONSE

I have to tell you the above has got to be one of the biggest cake taking statements that I have seen on CC.....DUDE.....you really should take time off from CC...and spend a few years in honest study......serious!

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

HELLO!!!

Cheap Grace DOES NOT mean that God's grace is cheap.

It means that SOME MEN MAKE IT OUT TO BE.


You should try to understand the difference.

For instance, you're beliefs make grace to be cheap.

If I give you everything and you give me nothing,
Everything I've given you is of NO VALUE TO YOU since have give me nothing in RETURN.

Easy concept.

Grace is free, How much cheaper can it get?

We get it you hate cheap grace, But you make it cheaper by trying to add works to it..

 

[dcontroversal]

Sometimes I wish everyone would take a few classes on logic and debate.....

The Most Common Logical Fallacies

AMEN....I love how they like to try the bait and switch trick...... Caveat Emptor with a Christian twist!

 

[Ariel82]

its very simple; nowhere in the text can one find the transfer of virtues....sin is imputed/reckoned to those that do iniquity. the soul that sinneth he shall die, Ezek 18... And righteousness is imputed/reckoned to those that do what is right, [TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"][/TD]
[TD]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3-7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

anyone telling you different is a deceiver, rather it be knowingly or unknowingly....

Perhaps you need to study what "virtue" really means?

*Luke 8:46 ►
New International Version
But Jesus said, "Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me."

New Living Translation
But Jesus said, "Someone deliberately touched me, for I felt healing power go out from me."

English Standard Version
But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.”

Berean Study Bible
But Jesus declared, "Someone touched Me, for I know that power has gone out from Me."

Berean Literal Bible
But Jesus said, "Someone touched Me, for I know power has gone out from Me."

New American Standard Bible
But Jesus said, "Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me."

King James Bible
And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Highly unlikely, but I am glad I haven't taken him off ignore today.

Maybe tomorrow he will have a better day.

EG..,,, I can't find hatred or animosity in my heart at this time..,can you help me look? Cus I was told it was in us.....

we need to all look, and have others speak into our lives,, If we can not be this humble,, we will fail to grow spiritually.

 

[dcontroversal]

knowing this first; understand the meaning of the word "works/deeds" in the contexts in which it is written in the various places in scripture...the term works, has different applications depending upon context.... many times, especially when the apostle Paul wrote of RELIGIOUS WORKS, which he called "works of the law", of which cannot save....Christianity is full of religious works that they perceive can save, such as you do "this, this, this, and this", all of which do nothing to curb the sinful indulgences of the flesh, all the while being blinded to the works of faith that can save the soul from iniquity and ruination...

there are works of the law (ordinances> religious ceremonies, washings, new moons, feast days, circumcision, etc.) all of these works cannot save you, and these ordinances were nailed to the cross just as the apostle Paul said in Colossians...HOWEVER, "the works of faith" (obedience from the heart through sincerity) does save, and does purge one from the sinful desires of the flesh...be blessed in your searching and rightly dividing the word of truth..

She has rightly divided the truth and biblically believed that faith alone is what saves and justifies before God......