Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Okay I Have a question:
How many used to attend a Different Mainline Church, that switched Churches to an evangelical style of Church, strictly because got more Bibles teaching there, with longer Sermons. That is why I left Lutheran Church, to seek out a Church with MORE BIBLE TEACHING.
You see when I got saved the last week on 1977, I noticed I got EXTREMELY Hungry for the WORD that the Pastor exposited it. That is a style of Preaching where you will explain what it means by what it says, why it means what it says, and how it applies to our lives, and has the gift to keep it interesting. At that time the Lutheran Church where I attended on had 10 - 15 minute sermons. As far as I am concerned that is a STARVATION DIET of Teaching the WORD. The Church I attend know, has one hour Sermons, and it never gets boring.
How many used to attend a Different Mainline Church, that switched Churches to an evangelical style of Church, strictly because got more Bibles teaching there, with longer Sermons. That is why I left Lutheran Church, to seek out a Church with MORE BIBLE TEACHING.
You see when I got saved the last week on 1977, I noticed I got EXTREMELY Hungry for the WORD that the Pastor exposited it. That is a style of Preaching where you will explain what it means by what it says, why it means what it says, and how it applies to our lives, and has the gift to keep it interesting. At that time the Lutheran Church where I attended on had 10 - 15 minute sermons. As far as I am concerned that is a STARVATION DIET of Teaching the WORD. The Church I attend know, has one hour Sermons, and it never gets boring.
-
1
- Show all
Most of my Christian friends as well as myself fit that description. Some were RCC, Christian Science, Episcopal even LDS. 
When the hunger for the true word starts to increase the Lord will provide a good place to learn. There's nothing wrong with trying to match what churches teach and how, with the bible and the kind of ways we learn as individuals. We are all different and learn differently. We are supposed to test the spirit of our teachers by comparing what they teach with the Word of God. It's mature and important to grow as we learn and learn as we grow. Like food; We started with milk, then baby food then more substantial, sophisticated and nourishing to our soul.
When the hunger for the true word starts to increase the Lord will provide a good place to learn. There's nothing wrong with trying to match what churches teach and how, with the bible and the kind of ways we learn as individuals. We are all different and learn differently. We are supposed to test the spirit of our teachers by comparing what they teach with the Word of God. It's mature and important to grow as we learn and learn as we grow. Like food; We started with milk, then baby food then more substantial, sophisticated and nourishing to our soul.
-
1
- Show all
E
I grew up in a Baptist Church. We had a few pastors all they would do is teach 20 minute sermonette I used to call them, hellfire and brimstone, right before I went into the military, we hired a man who would teach one hour ICE principle doctrinal teachings, yet go through the Bible verse by verse, that was and has been my favorite. It was hard to go back to anything else.
right now I am a part of a non denominational church, while they do not get as deep as that pastor/teacher as he called himself, they do go though the word and all their teachings are 50 to 70 minutes long
right now I am a part of a non denominational church, while they do not get as deep as that pastor/teacher as he called himself, they do go though the word and all their teachings are 50 to 70 minutes long
-
1
- Show all
Yes, I have too been in those type of Hell FIRE and Brimstone Church, too. It is NOT my Cup of TEA. However, I recognize that some People NEED that kind of Preaching, or they DO NOT feel like they have been to CHURCH.
Most here know that I go to a non-denominational, conservative Church, and feel at HOME there. What I mean by conservative is we do not believe in Ordaining women, elders have to be biblical elders, and Teaching of the Word, must dominate the Worship. So prayer, announcements, and Music consist of the First 40 minutes, followed by a 1 hour sermon, give or take a few minutes. Some of you may prefer another style of service, but this fits my HEART (Human Spirit), just fine.
-
1
- Show all
I was thinking of this today...
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
For this reason, the law had to be made obsolete and Jesus had to come to us in love, in order to stop the motion of sin by the law in our members. It's paradoxical, but the frame of mind considering law and fear of punishment, actually stirs up the flesh to sin. Makes no logical sense, but the Bible says it's how it works. When this is canceled, we become able to choose love. Love can only exist in freedom.
And it hit me then, love cannot be called a free choice if the alternative is a threat of unimaginable torture. What a joke! That is acting under duress and would be null and void in any basic human court of law, lest in God's. It's being freed from worry about punishment that prompts us to choose the right things, freely, wholeheartedly, not under pressure or threat.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment [more literal rendition from Greek would be, fear involves punishment]. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I want to be made perfect in love, thank you very much.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
For this reason, the law had to be made obsolete and Jesus had to come to us in love, in order to stop the motion of sin by the law in our members. It's paradoxical, but the frame of mind considering law and fear of punishment, actually stirs up the flesh to sin. Makes no logical sense, but the Bible says it's how it works. When this is canceled, we become able to choose love. Love can only exist in freedom.
And it hit me then, love cannot be called a free choice if the alternative is a threat of unimaginable torture. What a joke! That is acting under duress and would be null and void in any basic human court of law, lest in God's. It's being freed from worry about punishment that prompts us to choose the right things, freely, wholeheartedly, not under pressure or threat.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment [more literal rendition from Greek would be, fear involves punishment]. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I want to be made perfect in love, thank you very much.
-
1
- Show all
Maybe I should explain my understanding of OSAS in detail. IT IS NOT I AM SAVED, SO I CAN SIN ALL I WANT.
OSAS, means YOU HAVE A CHANGED NATURE, in your Human Spirit, and that CHANGE is "I WANT TO PLEASE THE LORD, OUT OF PURE AGAPE LOVE." If that change has not happened in your Heart, (Human Spirit); I seriously doubt if you have truly been Born Again.
When the Holy Spirit comes into a HEART, HE instantly Applies to our Human Spirit Several Things,
or Changes Several things, or DOES Several things, or Some things HE STARTS, or causes it to Hunger and Thirst for HIS WORD, etc.
Births our once Dead Human Spirit into Eternal Life.
2 Tim. 1:9, John 3:3-7, Rom. 10:8-11, Rom 5:5, John 14:15-18, 1 John 5:1-3, Mt. 5:6
THE ONLY PURE MOTIVE for doing Something for the LORD or Others Christians, is AGAPE LOVE.
ANTHING LESS is at least WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE, and will be burned up;
or Nothing More than FILTHY RAGS to the LORD.
If you Do Something to try to manipulate the LORD into giving you SALVATION, or gain a Favor from HIM, it is WORTHLESS TO HIM, OR maybe even Belief in a False Gospel that will not Save you.
That is what OSAS actually means, and that FALSE Idea that I can do anything that I want, because one thinks you are Saved, is an ERROR that is taught by some believers.
So Once You are GENUINELY SAVED FOREVER Spiritually, John 3:6, what comes NEXT?
Many People have confused Salvation with Sanctification, when they are two different works of the Holy Spirit.
One SAVES YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT by applying the SALVATION bought by Christ before the beginning of time, and happens in an instant.
Sanctification HAPPENS AFTER SALVATION, and is an ONGOING teaching, us to WALK LIKE CHRIST, and continues Until the Resurrection.
That Confusion, mostly is non-born again people cannot understand that the Spiritual Mind also resides in the Human Heart, about 18 inches below the fleshly mind, that lies between your ears. Yes, the Fleshly Mind wars with the Spiritual Mind; however once you get enough BIBLE in you to Mature the Human Spirit, it will become dominant. But you will have a Sin Nature, as long as you are in this BODY.
So WORKS that YOU THINK, can gain favor with GOD, improve your odds for SALVATION, Pay for some part of your Salvation, etc.; are just plain FUTILE. It is only a way to LOVE HIM BACK:
1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
19 We love because He first loved us.
OSAS, means YOU HAVE A CHANGED NATURE, in your Human Spirit, and that CHANGE is "I WANT TO PLEASE THE LORD, OUT OF PURE AGAPE LOVE." If that change has not happened in your Heart, (Human Spirit); I seriously doubt if you have truly been Born Again.
When the Holy Spirit comes into a HEART, HE instantly Applies to our Human Spirit Several Things,
or Changes Several things, or DOES Several things, or Some things HE STARTS, or causes it to Hunger and Thirst for HIS WORD, etc.
Births our once Dead Human Spirit into Eternal Life.
2 Tim. 1:9, John 3:3-7, Rom. 10:8-11, Rom 5:5, John 14:15-18, 1 John 5:1-3, Mt. 5:6
THE ONLY PURE MOTIVE for doing Something for the LORD or Others Christians, is AGAPE LOVE.
ANTHING LESS is at least WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE, and will be burned up;
or Nothing More than FILTHY RAGS to the LORD.
If you Do Something to try to manipulate the LORD into giving you SALVATION, or gain a Favor from HIM, it is WORTHLESS TO HIM, OR maybe even Belief in a False Gospel that will not Save you.
That is what OSAS actually means, and that FALSE Idea that I can do anything that I want, because one thinks you are Saved, is an ERROR that is taught by some believers.
So Once You are GENUINELY SAVED FOREVER Spiritually, John 3:6, what comes NEXT?
Many People have confused Salvation with Sanctification, when they are two different works of the Holy Spirit.
One SAVES YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT by applying the SALVATION bought by Christ before the beginning of time, and happens in an instant.
Sanctification HAPPENS AFTER SALVATION, and is an ONGOING teaching, us to WALK LIKE CHRIST, and continues Until the Resurrection.
That Confusion, mostly is non-born again people cannot understand that the Spiritual Mind also resides in the Human Heart, about 18 inches below the fleshly mind, that lies between your ears. Yes, the Fleshly Mind wars with the Spiritual Mind; however once you get enough BIBLE in you to Mature the Human Spirit, it will become dominant. But you will have a Sin Nature, as long as you are in this BODY.
So WORKS that YOU THINK, can gain favor with GOD, improve your odds for SALVATION, Pay for some part of your Salvation, etc.; are just plain FUTILE. It is only a way to LOVE HIM BACK:
1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
19 We love because He first loved us.
-
1
- Show all
Yes I do, but that Action I firmly believe is controlled by the HOLY SPIRIT and CHRIST HIMSELF.
Tell me what Part of my post that you say you don't believe; and I will give you the Biblical VERSES that support it.
Galatians 2:20-21 (HCSB)
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
Romans 7:5-25 (HCSB)
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions operated through the law in every part of us and bore fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law.
7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.
8 And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead.
9 Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life
10 and I died. The commandment that was meant for life resulted in death for me.
11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.
13 Therefore, did what is good cause my death? Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment, sin might become sinful beyond measure.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.
I too KNOW it is CHRIST IN ME THAT DOES whatever I DO GOOD.
If and when I recognize SIN IN ME, I own those action by my SELF, and CONFESS THEM AS SIN.
It seems illogical to Credit yourself for Good Works.
HE EMPOWERS US.
Isaiah 59:21 (NCV)
21 The LORD says, “This is my agreement with these people: My Spirit and my words that I give you will never leave you or your children or your grandchildren, now and forever.“
Hebrews 13:5 (NRSV)
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you."
John 14:15-17 (YLT)
15 `If ye love me, my commands keep,
16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you--to the age;
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.
Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.
1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.
2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.
So How come so many want to Pat themselves on the Back for doing GOOD WORKS ? ? ?
Galatians 2:20-21 (HCSB)
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
HE EMPOWERS US.
Isaiah 59:21 (NCV)
21 The LORD says, “This is my agreement with these people: My Spirit and my words that I give you will never leave you or your children or your grandchildren, now and forever.“
Hebrews 13:5 (NRSV)
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you."
John 14:15-17 (YLT)
15 `If ye love me, my commands keep,
16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you--to the age;
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.
Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.
1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.
2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.
So How come so many want to Pat themselves on the Back for doing GOOD WORKS ? ? ?
Galatians 2:20-21 (HCSB)
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
-
3
- Show all
As I have said I don't believe the bible teaches that salvation is unconditional.
Do you believe your future sins are forgiven before you even commit them (as some do on cc)?
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31 KJV
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
Do you believe your future sins are forgiven before you even commit them (as some do on cc)?
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31 KJV
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
-
1
- Show all