Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
1 Peter 1:3-21:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.



Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God"
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63

I think it was first started by Cain, Went into most of the worlds religion, Infiltrated into the jewish religion, Come into the church first as jews added works of the law to grace, and then came from pagan influence through rome when they added sacramental works to salvation.

either way, It has been satans lie since the beginning

I agree. All is traced back to the garden. Satan was twisting God's word back then, and I believe Cain was probably the first example of a non believer, who was trying to get to God on his own terms, not God's way.

But I was making the point that today a lot of the protestant churches are getting many of their destructive teachings from the catholic church. The RCC is the mother whore of Babylon, so just has passed on the paganism and added many extra teachings of her own. In the protestant churches these teachings have different names, but they really look like catholic doctrine repackaged. For example, I personally believe the prosperity gospel might be a renewal of the catholic doctrine of indulgences, so just given a different name, since they teach pretty much the same thing... give us money for a blessing. The popes of old would promise pardons/favors in exchange for money, such as getting a loved one out of "purgatory". So to me I see protestant churches have been infiltrated with catholic doctrine. And I believe conditional security has its roots in catholicism also.

Maybe these protestant denominations are the daughters of Rome, as mentioned in the scriptures? It makes me think of that scripture "spiritual wickedness in the Heavenly places".

All these false pagan religions are traced back to Babylon and Rome is said to be the mother system. But even before Babylon we know there was rebellion, so I agree with you.

By the way, my evil autocorrect is at it again. Changed that first paragraph word from "God" to "Odd". Truly changing the word of God!!! :eek:
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
1 Peter 1:3-21:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.



Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God"
It's interesting how we read ONLY what we LIKE, and not the Whole versse or verses.

Please see the highlighted. I used big lettering because you already used red. (I'm not screaming)
You DID MISS 1 Peter 1:2



1 Peter 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.



You have faith............... You have salvation.
You have no faith......... You have no salvation.
 
Last edited:

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
[h=1]G5219[/h]ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.
Total KJV occurrences: 21

This is obedient in that verse Fran. Hearing and hearkening to..

Wouldnt this be being led by Holy Spirit?

be back later
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
[h=1]G5219[/h]ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.
Total KJV occurrences: 21

This is obedient in that verse Fran. Hearing and hearkening to..

Wouldnt this be being led by Holy Spirit?

be back later
You didn't specify the verse.
but I'm not even asking you to.

I don't really understand what you mean.

The Holy Spirit is our guide, no?
So the Holy Spirit advises us of what we SHOULD do, and then HELPS US to do it.
We still get to choose if we do it or not. We're not robots.

Hear
Harken
To heed
to conform to a command or authority
to be obedient, to obey

SO????

I don't get your point.

This is exactly what I'm saying...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
Fran -

I have and many others have shown you what "believe" means - It's useless to keep posting the same things to you but I will post again as I believe it will help the viewers to know that Christ will not forsake nor desert them and that they are safe in Him.
I clearly explained what "believe" means in post #7388 and I also explained how the Roman Catholic church errors about what "believe" means (they try to "shoe horn" works "into" the definition of believe/faith) and as you can see in post #7396, Fran agrees with Catholicism. - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-370.html
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
[h=1]G5219[/h]ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.
Total KJV occurrences: 21

This is obedient in that verse Fran. Hearing and hearkening to..

Wouldnt this be being led by Holy Spirit?

be back later
Plus,

I really don't get the point of going to the Greek.

Isn't the English sufficient for our purposes here?
I think so.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
I clearly explained what "believe" means in post #7388 and I also explained how the Roman Catholic church errors about what "believe" means (they try to "shoe horn" works "into" the definition of believe/faith) and as you can see in post #7396, Fran agrees with Catholicism. - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-370.html
I agree with who is right MMD.

And you and those who believe in eternal security are wrong all around.
Leaving aside the bible, it's plain common sense.

If I return to a life of sin, how could I still be saved?
A life of sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live together in the same space.
As is evidenced in 1 Corinthians, Romans, Mathew, James, Peter, EVERY BOOK IN THE BIBLE.

Eternal Security has come about only in the past few hundred years. Christianity has been around for over 2,000 years.

Does this tell you nothing? You suppose ALL THE THEOLOGIANS before Calvin WERE WRONG?

This idea of not our salvation may comfort you, but it's INCORRECT.

§check out all the IF's in the N.T. the next time you go through it. There are PLENTY. This is a conditionl word, as you well know.

How do you get passed that?
Because you've gone from one extreme to the other.

When the RCC is wrong, it's wrong.
In this case IT AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF PROTESTANT CHURCHES, are correct. Salvation CAN be lost.
it's good that Christians know this so that they think twice before abandoning God.

If they listen to YOU, they abandon God and lose their salvation since salvation is only IN FAITH.
What if they die? You have their soul on YOUR conscience.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,584
9,104
113
Assurance of salvation

Fran, I considered several ways to explaining assurance of salvation. I was going to take the explanation through the whole spiritual apparatus of salvation and justification by faith to assurance. However, I looked at the multitude of posts by yourself in this thread and others and I decided that you knew and understood all the concepts as far as mental assent goes.
I am convinced that you are an alert and intelligent individual with a good command of the English language, and dare I say it, a gift for the gab. I believe you when you say that you have debated this issue several times (not only on this forum). Perhaps you are a bit like those annoying, but nonetheless attractive girls and young women I knew at school, who could always win an argument. Being right or wrong was never the issue – winning the debate was!

So, instead I will start here:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2


and end here:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

In fact the entire chapter is Paul’s magnum opus on the assurance of salvation.
When you read verse 1, given your track record through this thread up to now you will immediately be thinking that there is an escape clause in that verse: “who do not walk according to the flesh“.
Not so.
Verse 9 explains who is who and what is what:

[SUP]9[/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9

What is the difference between those who are in the flesh and those in the Spirit?
Simple: “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” – not a Christian.
Simple: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you“ – a Christian.

My take on your approach is that somehow one can flip-flop from one state to another, from having the Holy Spirit to not having the Holy Spirit!
Is this Biblically tenable?
I would submit not.
Lets go on:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:14-17

For this passage of Scripture to make any sense whatsoever it is not possible to oscillate between two states, Christian – non-Christian, born again – not born again, adopted son – not adopted.

Lets take this a bit further:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

The phrase “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise“ is not incidental. Everyone in those days knew what a seal was. Individuals like kings and rulers had seals. Seals were applied to documents and property. Messing with those seals meant the full wrath of those individuals and their authority of state because one was challenging and usurping their authority. Seals were often placed on goods purchased and then left without guard because the very seal was the guard or the security. No one would steal and goods marked with a seal unless they were willing to die for the privilege. The seals were inviolate.

The seal, which is the Holy Spirit is described like this: “who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.” The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. It is the same Holy Spirit that is our Spirit of adoption.

Furthermore we received this great inheritance, this adoption, by grace.
What does this mean exactly?
It means by grace, and therefore it cannot be of works in any way, shape, or form:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[SUP][c][/SUP] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:5-6

The reference to the remnant and the present time referred to those who were Christians. Paul absolutely emphasises that salvation (the phrase used here is “according to the election of grace”) is by grace, unmerited favour, a gift.
If calling salvation a gift seems like over-egging the goose then look at the terminology Paul uses in Romans chapter 5:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:15-17

Paul calls it not just a gift but in redundant fashions calls it a “free gift” to absolutely emphasise that man cannot work for this. Cannot earn it.
Grace cannot be called grace unless it is grace. A gift cannot be a gift unless it is a gift – a free gift!
For grace to be grace, then grace accepted cannot be recalled, and likewise, for a gift to be a gift, then a gift accepted cannot be recalled.

Of course, grace can be rejected and a gift spurned, but once accepted, the one who offered cannot then demand its return.
Grace is unmerited favour – grace accepted could never have been earned in the first place because it was unmerited. A gift is offered without contractual obligation otherwise it is not a gift, it then becomes a conditional offering.

Ephesians 2:8-9 summarises and emphasises that salvation is by grace through faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9

(Eph 2:10 belongs to this passage too, but I will come back to it later – promise!)

If our salvation is by grace through faith, as stated, and is the gift of God, and therefore not of ourselves, and not of works then man hcan have only two responses to this offer: accept it or reject it!
This is a binary choice there is no middle road of choice.
Also, if one accepts the gift, offered by grace through faith, the gift cannot be lost by works or lack thereof (otherwise it cannot be a gift, never mind a gift offered by grace)!

Lets go back to the end of Romans chapter 8:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

These verses are not quoted out of context, this is a summary of an entire passage of Scripture devoted to one topic – assurance of salvation.
Paul's quotes every extreme that he can think of as pertaining to the topic and concludes that none of these things “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now to something a little more on the personal level – if I may be so bold!
I believe that in many ways we share similar beliefs and similar issues about Christianity and Christians.
It seems that lukewarm believers really offend you – that goes for me too!
I have been really offended in my Christian walk by the deadness in much of Christianity – I have found this to be so in every flavour of Christianity, Reformed vs Pelagian, Pentecostal/Charismatic vs Cessationist, loud vs quiet. It doesn’t really matter where I looked the flame seemed to burn really, really low!

I have left several churches due to this issue – I was not prepared to waste my time and money on organisations that had no commitment to their foundational commitment (by this I mean the Great Commission).

I too believe in the vital place that works has in our walk with Christ – just not for salvation. When Paul talks of our adoption as children of God in Romans chapter 8, it means we become part of the “family business”. As such we have a job to do. Of course, God is sovereign and can achieve anything He wants to without our help but, instead, God decided that believers were to be partners in the enterprise. This is where Ephesians 2:10 comes into play:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10

These good works are consequent to the fact that we are saved, not a requirement for salvation. We are family, and part of a family enterprise not employees on a performance-based contract!

I believe that your crusade against what you term “easy-believism” is throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
It is just a substitute term for works-based salvation.
Obviously, in that situation there cannot be assurance of salvation because that is based on grace but a works-based “salvation” has to be according to individual merit.

But that is simply not what is taught – Paul devotes the whole of his epistle to the Romans to explain a Gospel of grace through faith, a free gift that was actually the most expensive gift in history – the shed blood of Jesus Christ!
Yet, to us it is free!
There is no other way to say it – it is a free gift – and that free gift manifests to us as the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), “the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out, Abba Father” Rom 8:15.

We are sealed and we are adopted as children of God, and as such we have “the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:14
I usually skip over posts longer than 3 or 4 paragraphs. (I have lousy attention span!) But this is an excellent post. As you have stated, however, I kinda think those that push a works salvation have indeed read and heard similar arguments before.

I used to be in the believing fearful camp of those that thought either my sin, or lack of works could result in the Lord leaving me and losing salvation.

It was only by Divine revelation from the Holy Spirit that the Light of Truth of eternal security clicked on. I am not suggesting we don't continue speak Truth, I'm just saying at the end of the day, these people need to be on their knees asking the Lord to reveal in their hearts what His Truth is.

Hate to quote from the movie Avatar, but "it is hard to fill a cup that's already full" seems to fit here. The only deterrent to accepting Truth is that you already think you have it.

BUT we must not get lost in the woods of debate to the point we don't show others just how much we REALLY love them and want them to have joy in the knowledge of Him. (Not saying you are doing this)

All of this will come across as condescension to them, and that is unfortunate, and NOT my intent.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0

true, But our forgiveness is not based on confession.. It would be impossible to confess every sin we commit..
Why? If you do something wrong, and you consciously are aware of it, what is wrong with
admitting it and confessing this.

I have found myself and others often would rather not go into sins or behaviour because we
actually want to continue in this way and would rather not address it, but we will admit in
general we have problems. The only way one can distinguish this from a truly repentant heart
is to confess each issue. Listen to what God says,

when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned.
Lev 5:5

Any man or woman who wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the Lord is guilty and must confess the sin they have committed. They must make full restitution for the wrong they have done, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the person they have wronged.
Num 5:6-7

We have to take this seriously, because evil and its motivations are so embedded in us.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,321
6,690
113
Plus,

I really don't get the point of going to the Greek.

Isn't the English sufficient for our purposes here?
I think so.
let me translate this for everyone- this means that the person who " doesn't get the point of greek" does not care very much about what words really mean, the person just wants to believe what they believe, without actual truth and knowledge getting in the way. especially when what they want is to push a works-based agenda.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I hear ya and exactly why I pack everywhere I go......our society is imploding and about to explode........
I hear ya bro, I think the 2 Timothy 3 warning is at hand.. We are in those last days.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
I used to be in the believing fearful camp of those that thought either my sin, or lack of works could result in the Lord leaving me and losing salvation.
Here my friend is your projection. You had faith, believed Christ had saved you, but put the
conditions of sin or good works as a condition of salvation.

Now I know the cross and Christ love, and in faith I am secure in His love. As a response to that
love I desire to walk in righteousness and love, and the fruit of this is good works.

All I have heard is not righteousness, but compromise with sin. This compromise is no sorrow over sin,
no mourning or understanding of the evil and destruction sin creates, no working through every sin
commited and its implications, and no desire to walk righteously, but rather happy to compromise daily
with sinful behaviour. And when talking about morality and law, rather than working through areas
of condemnation and admitting failure, rather ignore and just believe God forgives one in sinful behaviour.

This is just self deception and delusion in behaviour. It is also the definition of easy believism, where
belief saves you and lifestyle is irrelevant.

But this is not the gospel or being a light in the dark world, or victory of sin as demonstrated in the
people of God's lives.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
Originally Posted by Burninglight

Ep 2: 8,9 is clear that we are saved by God's grace through faith and not by works. Those that think they need to add works to be saved insult the Spirit of Grace and are severed from Christ. It is really sad those that call themselves Christians cannot see this, because they are not of Christ's fold and cannot hear His voice.

So, Burninglight if a person gets saved & is faithful for a few years, & decides to add works to his salvation, is this man severed from Christ?
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
Originally Posted bydcontroversal
My brother had some one time straight from Turkey....smelled just like pee until brewed....I NEVER drank any....said h--- no when he asked if I wanted some....HAHAHA NOT ME.....


Just curious..... you did say you were a former pastor, didn't you?


 
Z
People who say it's impossible to confess every single must think we sin non stop.... every move we make is not a "sin" in progress. There's so many I can't count, as if God's unjust.. oh wait he's not, BC nowhere does he say "repent".. Some think the cross did away with the act of repentance but it did not... Jesus clearly said we will be judged by the words He spoke.. If anyone thinks they can act contrary to them, they will be disappointed come time to face Him
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I agree. All is traced back to the garden. Satan was twisting God's word back then, and I believe Cain was probably the first example of a non believer, who was trying to get to God on his own terms, not God's way.

But I was making the point that today a lot of the protestant churches are getting many of their destructive teachings from the catholic church. The RCC is the mother whore of Babylon, so just has passed on the paganism and added many extra teachings of her own. In the protestant churches these teachings have different names, but they really look like catholic doctrine repackaged. For example, I personally believe the prosperity gospel might be a renewal of the catholic doctrine of indulgences, so just given a different name, since they teach pretty much the same thing... give us money for a blessing. The popes of old would promise pardons/favors in exchange for money, such as getting a loved one out of "purgatory". So to me I see protestant churches have been infiltrated with catholic doctrine. And I believe conditional security has its roots in catholicism also.

Maybe these protestant denominations are the daughters of Rome, as mentioned in the scriptures? It makes me think of that scripture "spiritual wickedness in the Heavenly places".

All these false pagan religions are traced back to Babylon and Rome is said to be the mother system. But even before Babylon we know there was rebellion, so I agree with you.

By the way, my evil autocorrect is at it again. Changed that first paragraph word from "God" to "Odd". Truly changing the word of God!!! :eek:
One thing to remember, When the reformation happened, many brought alot of the catholic doctrines with them. And many even have some of the same traditions. I remember the first time I went into a Lutheran church, I thought i was in a catholic church, I really saw no difference (only difference I remember is we did get on our knees on the kneeling boards back and forth)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It's interesting how we read ONLY what we LIKE, and not the Whole versse or verses.

Please see the highlighted. I used big lettering because you already used red. (I'm not screaming)
You DID MISS 1 Peter 1:2



1 Peter 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.



You have faith............... You have salvation.
You have no faith......... You have no salvation.

I must wonder why you did not highlight the parts I bolded and made into a larger font?

You like to focus on obedience, Yet you ignored where it came from

It says through Gods foreknowledge. (he already knew) we were chosen to be sanctified by the spirit, be obedient and be sprinkled by the blood.

It is through the sanctification of God that we are obedient, Not of our own power. It saddens me that people want to take power away from God. as if he can fail. And give yourself more power. as if you can resist.