Not By Works

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Ariel82

Guest
It does not get any plainer........Their unrighteous works have ZERO to do with
God casting them into the lake of fire.
Actually that's true.

It's their disbelief and rejection of Jesus that causes them to be cast into the Fire.

Is there anyone on Earth that has not sinned besides Jesus?


Not saying that people should KEEP SINNING. Just that all are sinners in need of a savior.

If they reject their savior then they are judged purely based upon works and that will end up with them tossed in the fire,
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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So is your God an angel? Even the NASB says in Genesis 22:11 that it was the angel of the LORD that spoke to Abraham.
It is called a Theophany when God appears to someone in some form.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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Keep reading in the passage.
The angel is speaking on behalf of the Lord.
That is what the Muslims say since it was the angel of the LORD that gave Muhammad the Quran.

Yet it is written the LORD said that he would raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth. So if Abraham was a prophet then why did an angel of the LORD to speak to him on behalf of the LORD.

As a prophet of God wouldn't Abraham be aware of the fact that Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man was the covenant which God had already given to Noah as written in Gen 9:12And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:


So what did Paul mean when he said 2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.



S
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Isn't that a unrighteousness work?
Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

FGT

Banned
May 26, 2017
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Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
What is the work of unbelief?

Unrighteous or righteous?
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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It is called a Theophany when God appears to someone in some form.
That must be like Nil Communication, that is where a person sends a message without sending anything at all. I guess that is reason that it written that LORD said of the eternal God that sent him, you have neither heard his voice, nor seen his shape.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8
 

1True

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2017
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It is amazing what a little faith can do especially if it is like a mustard seed ,it is the smallest seed but produces plenty,Holy Consuming Fire burn away all things that are not of you and guide us into all things if '
(john21:16)"
"do you love me Tend My Sheep''
Yet it is like the grain of wheat that falls on the ground and dies-----it will spring up and change the entire landscape(JOHN12:24)
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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[h=2]Re: Not By Works[/h]
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:3-5
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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That is what the Muslims say since it was the angel of the LORD that gave Muhammad the Quran.
Mohammed did not know what manner of spirit accosted him; he actually believed he was demon possessed until he allowed his wife and another relative to convince him it was the angel Gabriel which is not a theophany at all, do you understand nothing???
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Mohammed did not know what manner of spirit accosted him; he actually believed he was demon possessed until he allowed his wife and another relative to convince him it was the angel Gabriel which is not a theophany at all, do you understand nothing???
From what I know, the story in quran is similar to the Bible, example quran tell about Moses, Adam and Eve, but not exactly.

I believe mohamad copy copy from the Bible, not from angel.

Let say say I claim myself as a prophet, and I claim, last night an angel came, he tell me Washington is the capital city of America. Only idiot believe it. Every body believe Washington is us capital city, but to believe that last night angel came to me need to be idiot.

why, because it do not need an angel to know that washington is us capital city. It is in the geography book.

mohamad live in the year 500 plus in the region where there is Christian, and his uncle, Waraqal bin nawful is Christian.
And his first wife katijah also catholic. Bible was there before he even born.

ofcourse he had access to the Bible. He may herd the story of Moses, Adam etc from the Christian or catholic around him and claim as the revelation from the angel.

unless he lives in remote place where there no Bible and never communicate with Christian or catholic and know the story of Moses etc, I may take consideration. Otherwise sorry, it is lie.
 
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Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Abraham almost sacrifice of Isaac is a foreshadowing of Jesus death on the cross for the remission of sins.
Both events occurred on the same mountain, also :)

The Father giving up His only son...

And interesting to note is that God then provided an offering for Abraham, a substitute. Another foreshadow of Jesus, the perfect lamb of God taking our place....


Genesis 22:12-14: "And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided.”


2 Cor 5:21: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him"

Isaiah 53:5: "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed"
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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I just read some of John MacArthur's blog, and love how he puts it. He's another one that also believes in God's promises.

Copy/paste...


"If your hope of eternal life is tied to the consistency of your earthly obedience, what hope is that? When you compare your obedience to the divine standard, when you compare yourself with the holiness of God, how do you measure up? A thousand lifetimes wouldn’t enable me to perfect holiness before an absolutely holy God; a thousand lifetimes would only reveal how utterly corrupt I truly am.

There’s no hope in the doctrine of conditional security. None at all. In fact, ever since that first encounter with someone who believed he could lose his salvation, I’ve met a number of people with the same fear. They constantly fret over the possibility they’ve unwittingly forfeited their salvation, having committed a sin so bad that God has disowned them"


"Not only do I believe the doctrine of conditional security is false, I would even dare to say it is blasphemous. The idea that you could lose the salvation God gave you slanders God and runs contrary to a number of the Bible’s core doctrines."



"Beyond the impossible burden of maintaining personal salvation, the doctrine of conditional security also strikes a blow against the power of God. To say you can lose your salvation—which the Bible says God accomplished through the death of Jesus Christ—is to make God into an impotent deity with no actual power to save anyone. The full exercise of His divine power is at the mercy of a weak, finite, and sinful creature who may or may not cooperate with Him"
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The Father giving up His only son...

And interesting to note is that God then provided an offering for Abraham, a substitute. Another foreshadow of Jesus, the perfect lamb of God taking our place....

Genesis 22:12-14: "And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided.”

2 Cor 5:21: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him"

Isaiah 53:5: "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed"
Yes, and even the ram, caught in the the thicket, had a crown of thorns upon his head...
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Assurance of salvation

Fran, I considered several ways to explaining assurance of salvation. I was going to take the explanation through the whole spiritual apparatus of salvation and justification by faith to assurance. However, I looked at the multitude of posts by yourself in this thread and others and I decided that you knew and understood all the concepts as far as mental assent goes.
I am convinced that you are an alert and intelligent individual with a good command of the English language, and dare I say it, a gift for the gab. I believe you when you say that you have debated this issue several times (not only on this forum). Perhaps you are a bit like those annoying, but nonetheless attractive girls and young women I knew at school, who could always win an argument. Being right or wrong was never the issue – winning the debate was!

So, instead I will start here:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2


and end here:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

In fact the entire chapter is Paul’s magnum opus on the assurance of salvation.
When you read verse 1, given your track record through this thread up to now you will immediately be thinking that there is an escape clause in that verse: “who do not walk according to the flesh“.
Not so.
Verse 9 explains who is who and what is what:

[SUP]9[/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9

What is the difference between those who are in the flesh and those in the Spirit?
Simple: “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” – not a Christian.
Simple: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you“ – a Christian.

My take on your approach is that somehow one can flip-flop from one state to another, from having the Holy Spirit to not having the Holy Spirit!
Is this Biblically tenable?
I would submit not.
Lets go on:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:14-17

For this passage of Scripture to make any sense whatsoever it is not possible to oscillate between two states, Christian – non-Christian, born again – not born again, adopted son – not adopted.

Lets take this a bit further:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

The phrase “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise“ is not incidental. Everyone in those days knew what a seal was. Individuals like kings and rulers had seals. Seals were applied to documents and property. Messing with those seals meant the full wrath of those individuals and their authority of state because one was challenging and usurping their authority. Seals were often placed on goods purchased and then left without guard because the very seal was the guard or the security. No one would steal and goods marked with a seal unless they were willing to die for the privilege. The seals were inviolate.

The seal, which is the Holy Spirit is described like this: “who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.” The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. It is the same Holy Spirit that is our Spirit of adoption.

Furthermore we received this great inheritance, this adoption, by grace.
What does this mean exactly?
It means by grace, and therefore it cannot be of works in any way, shape, or form:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[SUP][c][/SUP] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:5-6

The reference to the remnant and the present time referred to those who were Christians. Paul absolutely emphasises that salvation (the phrase used here is “according to the election of grace”) is by grace, unmerited favour, a gift.
If calling salvation a gift seems like over-egging the goose then look at the terminology Paul uses in Romans chapter 5:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:15-17

Paul calls it not just a gift but in redundant fashions calls it a “free gift” to absolutely emphasise that man cannot work for this. Cannot earn it.
Grace cannot be called grace unless it is grace. A gift cannot be a gift unless it is a gift – a free gift!
For grace to be grace, then grace accepted cannot be recalled, and likewise, for a gift to be a gift, then a gift accepted cannot be recalled.

Of course, grace can be rejected and a gift spurned, but once accepted, the one who offered cannot then demand its return.
Grace is unmerited favour – grace accepted could never have been earned in the first place because it was unmerited. A gift is offered without contractual obligation otherwise it is not a gift, it then becomes a conditional offering.

Ephesians 2:8-9 summarises and emphasises that salvation is by grace through faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9

(Eph 2:10 belongs to this passage too, but I will come back to it later – promise!)

If our salvation is by grace through faith, as stated, and is the gift of God, and therefore not of ourselves, and not of works then man hcan have only two responses to this offer: accept it or reject it!
This is a binary choice there is no middle road of choice.
Also, if one accepts the gift, offered by grace through faith, the gift cannot be lost by works or lack thereof (otherwise it cannot be a gift, never mind a gift offered by grace)!

Lets go back to the end of Romans chapter 8:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

These verses are not quoted out of context, this is a summary of an entire passage of Scripture devoted to one topic – assurance of salvation.
Paul's quotes every extreme that he can think of as pertaining to the topic and concludes that none of these things “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now to something a little more on the personal level – if I may be so bold!
I believe that in many ways we share similar beliefs and similar issues about Christianity and Christians.
It seems that lukewarm believers really offend you – that goes for me too!
I have been really offended in my Christian walk by the deadness in much of Christianity – I have found this to be so in every flavour of Christianity, Reformed vs Pelagian, Pentecostal/Charismatic vs Cessationist, loud vs quiet. It doesn’t really matter where I looked the flame seemed to burn really, really low!

I have left several churches due to this issue – I was not prepared to waste my time and money on organisations that had no commitment to their foundational commitment (by this I mean the Great Commission).

I too believe in the vital place that works has in our walk with Christ – just not for salvation. When Paul talks of our adoption as children of God in Romans chapter 8, it means we become part of the “family business”. As such we have a job to do. Of course, God is sovereign and can achieve anything He wants to without our help but, instead, God decided that believers were to be partners in the enterprise. This is where Ephesians 2:10 comes into play:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10

These good works are consequent to the fact that we are saved, not a requirement for salvation. We are family, and part of a family enterprise not employees on a performance-based contract!

I believe that your crusade against what you term “easy-believism” is throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
It is just a substitute term for works-based salvation.
Obviously, in that situation there cannot be assurance of salvation because that is based on grace but a works-based “salvation” has to be according to individual merit.

But that is simply not what is taught – Paul devotes the whole of his epistle to the Romans to explain a Gospel of grace through faith, a free gift that was actually the most expensive gift in history – the shed blood of Jesus Christ!
Yet, to us it is free!
There is no other way to say it – it is a free gift – and that free gift manifests to us as the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), “the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out, Abba Father” Rom 8:15.

We are sealed and we are adopted as children of God, and as such we have “the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:14
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I hadn't thought about that! :)
The pictures of our suffering servant, His willingness to sacrifice Himself, His humility, His obedience unto death, so many foreshadowings throughout the old testaments, it is truly amazing the stage that God prepared for His Son to enter, and the path set before Him to walk, knowing His end, His aim, His purpose, all for the love He has of us, and His desire to gather us to Him, and give us a life more abundant...

butterflynewbirth.jpg


 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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Mohammed did not know what manner of spirit accosted him; he actually believed he was demon possessed until he allowed his wife and another relative to convince him it was the angel Gabriel which is not a theophany at all, do you understand nothing???
What does my comment regarding another question by another member have anything to do with your divination doctrine?

I understand that you like to must stuff up, but if the book Mohammed received said it was given to him by the angel called Gabriel, who am I to dispute it except to say that man doth not like by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of the LORD.