Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Ariel - the Spirit behind the rebellion is clear, yet you call these followers brothers.

Their own sin testimony stands against them. To encourage their slander and sin just
makes it worse. A man at peace with sin is a man lost to Christ.

Every scripture that speaks of love and life is closed to them for who voluntarily condemns
themselves to death and calls this salvation. Their consciences are seared, there hearts set
and nothing changes.

I have talked to dead men walking before, knowing there end was set, and they still talked
like tomorrow would come like any other.

Korah's rebellion was complete, and when I mention this, they dare not even think about it.
That is true spiritual blindness. And I share this with you because I have hope for you still.

God bless you, May His love guide your paths and you know His will

Peterjens you are blinded by your own log and yourself are in rebellion.

Do you not see that you are gossiping and being hypocritically judgemental in your poat?

Yes they do get heated and say words that go beyond the pale and I would tell them they should tame their tongue. Occasionally I make the effort. However, so do you.

If you want to judge people by a certain standard, you should live it.

It is good you apologised for calling Blue dumb, but you have called others much worst but have never apologised.

In this post you condemn me for calling people you don't like brother.

You see someone as a sinner and your reaction is not to go,along side them, but to cast them from your too holy presence?

Guess what peterjens, you are NOT GOD.

You can't see into people's heart. You can't tell if they are God's kids or not.

I see no love or grace in your words, no forgiveness of sins.
.all I see is that you have judged and condemned sinners to be unworthy since they don't fall at your feet in agreement with your words.

Yes, my words are harsh because of they were soft you would laugh and call me weak.

You scoff that I would show gentleness and love to those in rebellion.

Guess what..,making yourself judge has put you in rebellion. God is the only true judge,

It is fine to judge doctrine. Yet you insist on judging people,

Who "voluntarily condemns themselves to death and calls it salvation"?

Anyone who believe in OSAS?

Is that what has you up in arms?

You cant stand the fact God gives eternal life to His kids without requiring that they jump through hoops?

You are right "to encourage their slander and sin is just makes it worst".

Therefore I DISCOURAGE you from continuing to slander (falsely represent what people say and believe) and sin (falsely judge others as "dead men walking" and folks condemned to hell like the children of Korah)

I encourage you to repent.

As for their "sin testimony" you must have only read half the conversation because all of them centered around

HOW GOD IS HELPING THEM OVERCOME THEIR SINS.

Some are in the middle of their stories, but instead of encouraging to press forward and keep walking towards God.

You shout insults and tell them to stand still and make sure they are God's kids because they sure enough look like sinners to you.

If someone isn't whitewashed and able to proudly proclaim they are a Saint washed in the blood of the Lamb, you look at their dirt and push them back into the pigpen by your rejection of them.

It's a good thing Jesus doesn't do that. he walks alongside sinners.he washes the mud off them and tells them to lay down beside still waters and rest in His finished work upon the cross. He allows their broken heart to mend. He doesn't tell someone with a broken leg, they have to drag themselves to get to working. he carries them and gives them time to realise how much He loves them as they heal from the wounds this world inflicts.

God teaches people how to overcome and how to live godly lives. It's scientific fact the best way to quit an addiction is to replace the activity with something else.
.God shows us how to replace our sinful habits with His good and wholesome ones.

So perhaps you can learn to stop negatively judging others and seek to see how God is working in their hearts and lives instead?

Perhaps then you will not be so weary and discouraged with the world around you.

Lift your eyes to God and He will refresh your soul and renew your heart and mind to His truth.

 

[PeterJens]

The apostates, doubly dumb. God judges sin, they openly sin yet God loves them.
OSAS for them is ORAR once righteous always righteous, but the truth is still a sinner
still doomed.

An apostate has left the faith and is dumb because they have left God behind.

Now let me go through this step by step. Someone who apostated is stupid, calling
judgement upon themselves, no longer part of the body, an out cast.

It is just so odd to say, to call an apostate dumb is a sin. I think the stupidity involved
in this logic speaks for itself.

It is as stupid as going up to the throne of God on judgement day, looking God in the eye,
and saying, I have a right to sin, because you have already forgiven me before I sinned,
so by your own gospel I am right and you are wrong. That is dumb, because before the
Lord we will stand, and our walk is testimony to the truth of our faith.

But hey lets look at how Jesus describes hypocrites who believe God accepts them

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matt 23:33

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.
Matt 23:13-14

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
2 Cor 7:10

Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:7

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Eph 5:6

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:5

 

[Ariel82]

Here is the point.

A large number believe they will dwell in sin till they die.
Some believe it is just being human. They refuse to specify which sin and how this
works out. They freely admit they are evil doers bound to sin.

But we are called to discipleship, to learn how to walk in the Spirit not the flesh.
How can one say you know Jesus yet walk in the flesh?

If Jesus cannot make you clean through the cross, your hope is in vain.
Either you love righteousness and hate sin or you do not.

My friends sin is death, not some accidental issue, but chosen harm intended one to another.
Love is life, the giving of something freely, one person to another. Paul says in serving one
another in love we fulfill the law. So rather than condemning yourself on some feeling or thought,
realise how loved you are and how beautiful your walk of grace is. So tell me and think of
the acts of grace and love you will do today. God bless you.

No Peterjens, they admit to being sinners in need of a Savior, NOT "evildioers bound to sin"

Christ will help people overcome sin. You falsely judge people's hearts. It is not that they want to stay enslaved to sin, it's most often they need help and encouragement to overcome their sins. Sometime they need to relax and let Jesus carry them and heal them.

If someone runs a race and falls and breaks a leg, how much help is shouting at them to "run faster" going to be?

We run a spiritual race called life and the end prize is NOT salvation but crowns of righteousness. We currently wear a breastplare of Christ's righteousness but we run home to God.

If someone stumbles, do we stop and help or do we keep running and mock them as we pass?

If we don't stop, we don't notice the detour sign and end up running away from God instead of towards Him.

 

[Ariel82]

By your own words may you be judged.
God have mercy upon your soul.

You have missed the detour and are running away from,God.

 

[PeterJens]

In this post you condemn me for calling people you don't like brother.

Ariel - Like and not like? So you think this about liking people.
I love people, and accept them as they are, strengths and weaknesses.

People are apostate and will never repent, and willfully sin even when confronted.
That is apostacy.

Let me go through the process, just in case you do not realise it.

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone.
If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.
And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17

I am declaring today this final step of this process. We are called to not walk in sin, obvious
open sin. Those who hold it is ok, God does not see it, are apostate.

Upon them judgement will fall.

 

[Ariel82]

Why don't you tell us who you think is apostate?

I haven't seen one person say that they want to keep sinning and will spit in God's face and say it's okay for them to live as they want and still expect to be saved.

Are YOU SURE you are not in rebellion to God's instructions because of your false judgement of others?

 

[Ariel82]

Fyi, I will kneel beside a sinner in the dirt with a humble and contrite heart seeking God any day over a self righteous preacher upon his judgement throne bedecked in jewels and gold rings.

 

[PeterJens]

No Peterjens, they admit to being sinners in need of a Savior, NOT "evildioers bound to sin"

Christ will help people overcome sin. You falsely judge people's hearts. It is not that they want to stay enslaved to sin, it's most often they need help and encouragement to overcome their sins. Sometime they need to relax and let Jesus carry them and heal them.

If someone runs a race and falls and breaks a leg, how much help is shouting at them to "run faster" going to be?

We run a spiritual race called life and the end prize is NOT salvation but crowns of righteousness. We currently wear a breastplare of Christ's righteousness but we run home to God.

If someone stumbles, do we stop and help or do we keep running and mock them as we pass?

If we don't stop, we don't notice the detour sign and end up running away from God instead of towards Him.

Ariel - you want to believe the best in people and do not hear what they speak.
People with seared consciences will sweet talk their way into hell and not notice.

Go into any prison, and most are innocent.

My point is simple. God calls us to be pure, clean, Holy.
We can debar ourselves from this by saying it is impossible. God is not going to argue
with you, actually He will take you at your word.

It is ironic those who believe the power of their own words have creative authority, when
they say they openly sin, and cannot stop it, do not see how this bring judgement on
themselves. If you do not seek Gods ways or His will, how on earth can one know whether
you are holy or not, so why not just err on the side of caution and say sinning without stopping.

It is like saying get lost to God when He offers you true cleansing and the road to becoming like
Him, because you believe it is impossible and just a pipe dream of hypocrites and legalists.

All this religion, and when it comes to the crunch issue, nothing, rejection and failure.

 

[PeterJens]

Why don't you tell us who you think is apostate?

I haven't seen one person say that they want to keep sinning and will spit in God's face and say it's okay for them to live as they want and still expect to be saved.

Are YOU SURE you are not in rebellion to God's instructions because of your false judgement of others?

This is the irony of this. Each one knows their state.
I said before the test is simple.

Read the sermon on the mount and how your heart reacts.
This shows you where you are on this road.

It has never been for me to say who walks with Christ and who does not.
I am just a follower of the King and know the basis of His kingdom.

The point about people, like King Saul, it is easy to compromise, or David with Bathsheba,
or Israel with the golden calf, it is how you react when exposed that truly determines who
you are.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Peterjens you are blinded by your own log and yourself are in rebellion.

Do you not see that you are gossiping and being hypocritically judgemental in your poat?

Yes they do get heated and say words that go beyond the pale and I would tell them they should tame their tongue. Occasionally I make the effort. However, so do you.

If you want to judge people by a certain standard, you should live it.

It is good you apologised for calling Blue dumb, but you have called others much worst but have never apologised.

In this post you condemn me for calling people you don't like brother.

You see someone as a sinner and your reaction is not to go,along side them, but to cast them from your too holy presence?

Guess what peterjens, you are NOT GOD.

You can't see into people's heart. You can't tell if they are God's kids or not.

I see no love or grace in your words, no forgiveness of sins.
.all I see is that you have judged and condemned sinners to be unworthy since they don't fall at your feet in agreement with your words.

Yes, my words are harsh because of they were soft you would laugh and call me weak.

You scoff that I would show gentleness and love to those in rebellion.

Guess what..,making yourself judge has put you in rebellion. God is the only true judge,

It is fine to judge doctrine. Yet you insist on judging people,

Who "voluntarily condemns themselves to death and calls it salvation"?

Anyone who believe in OSAS?

Is that what has you up in arms?

You cant stand the fact God gives eternal life to His kids without requiring that they jump through hoops?

You are right "to encourage their slander and sin is just makes it worst".

Therefore I DISCOURAGE you from continuing to slander (falsely represent what people say and believe) and sin (falsely judge others as "dead men walking" and folks condemned to hell like the children of Korah)

I encourage you to repent.

As for their "sin testimony" you must have only read half the conversation because all of them centered around

HOW GOD IS HELPING THEM OVERCOME THEIR SINS.

Some are in the middle of their stories, but instead of encouraging to press forward and keep walking towards God.

You shout insults and tell them to stand still and make sure they are God's kids because they sure enough look like sinners to you.

If someone isn't whitewashed and able to proudly proclaim they are a Saint washed in the blood of the Lamb, you look at their dirt and push them back into the pigpen by your rejection of them.

It's a good thing Jesus doesn't do that. he walks alongside sinners.he washes the mud off them and tells them to lay down beside still waters and rest in His finished work upon the cross. He allows their broken heart to mend. He doesn't tell someone with a broken leg, they have to drag themselves to get to working. he carries them and gives them time to realise how much He loves them as they heal from the wounds this world inflicts.

God teaches people how to overcome and how to live godly lives. It's scientific fact the best way to quit an addiction is to replace the activity with something else.
.God shows us how to replace our sinful habits with His good and wholesome ones.

So perhaps you can learn to stop negatively judging others and seek to see how God is working in their hearts and lives instead?

Perhaps then you will not be so weary and discouraged with the world around you.

Lift your eyes to God and He will refresh your soul and renew your heart and mind to His truth.

Amen sister...I do not wish to flatter you with words but only to speak in truth, Peterjens words always condemn me, as i am going through the beautiful cleansing that my Lord Jesus Christ is doing in me with my addiction, He is washing me clean non stop, your words Ariel are uplifting for me because they are Godly, you speak with a gentle spirit not harsh or hard, as i said i am not flattering you with words but as a sinner who is on her journey where God has her, your words are healing and soothing to me, you are like a big sister in Christ who is helping me to move forward, am sorry Peterjens but your post sometimes make me feel like i want to run and hide, you are hard and stern but in a cold manner, you type nice words but then your coldness washes them away with your hardness, i am writing this because i am a viewer to both of your writings, and a gentle spirit with truth is a helping spirit, a guide to those who need a little help...xox...

 

[mj007]

The thing about judging the outer layer, or façade, is that you are not seeing the person underneath. However if you judge the intentions underneath that appear as the exterior, that is slightly different.

Sinning is apart from God, it is out of alignment with God. God looks inside us, he isn't looking at oh you have a potty-mouth you are going to hell, he sees the troubled person inside and wishes you to come into his light, as we should inspire others too.

While Jesus worked on those with troubles, people who were fighting demons inside of them, he judged entirely those who had become corrupted by their own free will and had succumb to these parasites that had become what I would call a Pharisite.

But what people tend to do is judge those who are troubled inside which comes out in some negative form or another, because they deny the existence of demons. But they don't judge those who exercise free will that is corrupted if those people have eg. a good sense of humour, are the same nationality as you, the same colour as you, the same church as you, the same religion as you, the same belief as you.

If a demon had overcome someone's free-will, how do you think that person would appear? Oddball? Loner? Weirdo? Angry? Hurtful?

A Christian law/psychology graduate I knew did a somewhat spiritual-study regarding criminals within the system in regards to rehabilitation. It appeared that about 95% of them had some inner issues they couldn't control which had overcome them due to; something that had happened, some loss that had made them weak, hurt that had made them weak, and were often on the outside 'pitiful' - struggling with demons so to say, but struggling with mental illness you might say, because demons don't exist of course(!) CBD or counselling/medication being the preferred method to somehow control/subdue/neuter rather than heal them.

But the scariest thing was that the most dangerous and likely to re-offend, came across normal, appeared to have the most understanding about their problem and how to fix it, and had an ability to make people laugh, and trust in them, and were highly sociable. The only odd characteristic was that they tended to get defensive to a degree of 'fabricated' reasoning if someone tried to tell them they were wrong about what they believed in. Somewhat a master of manipulation, in making people not question their authority of being right. Often using the pre-tense of being dumb about what you are talking about, to try and portray you as the dumb one, which is a common alpha-social tactic.

It is only when you challenge someone, that you see whether authentic love and understanding comes out of them, or the inability to do so, or love and understanding is in some calculated form which can be hard to recognise unless you are spiritually discerning.

Jesus believed in the existence of demons, but generally Christians deny the existence of demons, it's an icky subject they don't like to talk about, or maybe they think they were wiped out or at the least, extremely rare. It gives you a different perspective if you allow the concept, rather than just blame everything on mental illness, or think that nullifying medication is the solution. God CAN heal anything when it comes to the mind. Chemical imbalances are also controlled by the mind, and change depending on what thoughts you choose to think, or what thoughts you feel you have no control over.

 

[Ariel82]

I believe in the existence of demons, but know that God is more powerful and He sends His angels to toss their butts out.

What we have to deal with is the aftermath of hurt, pain and tearing down of spiritual strongholds that they built into a person's mind, body and soul.

Drug addiction is both a physical and spiritual stronghold.

 

[Ariel82]

love you Rose and you are continually in my prayers. I hope I am in yours also.

I will be out of touch next week taking a group of Methodist youth in a 30 mile backpacking trip. All prayers welcomed. Hoping that God uses this experience in a powerful way to touch each heart and mind that journey with us and we have healthy and uplifting folks....

So much to pray for but not enough words, trusting God to know and the Holy spirit to be in intercessory prayer over us all.

 

[gb9]

The thing about judging the outer layer, or façade, is that you are not seeing the person underneath. However if you judge the intentions underneath that appear as the exterior, that is slightly different.

Sinning is apart from God, it is out of alignment with God. God looks inside us, he isn't looking at oh you have a potty-mouth you are going to hell, he sees the troubled person inside and wishes you to come into his light, as we should inspire others too.

While Jesus worked on those with troubles, people who were fighting demons inside of them, he judged entirely those who had become corrupted by their own free will and had succumb to these parasites that had become what I would call a Pharisite.

But what people tend to do is judge those who are troubled inside which comes out in some negative form or another, because they deny the existence of demons. But they don't judge those who exercise free will that is corrupted if those people have eg. a good sense of humour, are the same nationality as you, the same colour as you, the same church as you, the same religion as you, the same belief as you.

If a demon had overcome someone's free-will, how do you think that person would appear? Oddball? Loner? Weirdo? Angry? Hurtful?

A Christian law/psychology graduate I knew did a somewhat spiritual-study regarding criminals within the system in regards to rehabilitation. It appeared that about 95% of them had some inner issues they couldn't control which had overcome them due to; something that had happened, some loss that had made them weak, hurt that had made them weak, and were often on the outside 'pitiful' - struggling with demons so to say, but struggling with mental illness you might say, because demons don't exist of course(!) CBD or counselling/medication being the preferred method to somehow control/subdue/neuter rather than heal them.

But the scariest thing was that the most dangerous and likely to re-offend, came across normal, appeared to have the most understanding about their problem and how to fix it, and had an ability to make people laugh, and trust in them, and were highly sociable. The only odd characteristic was that they tended to get defensive to a degree of 'fabricated' reasoning if someone tried to tell them they were wrong about what they believed in. Somewhat a master of manipulation, in making people not question their authority of being right. Often using the pre-tense of being dumb about what you are talking about, to try and portray you as the dumb one, which is a common alpha-social tactic.

It is only when you challenge someone, that you see whether authentic love and understanding comes out of them, or the inability to do so, or love and understanding is in some calculated form which can be hard to recognise unless you are spiritually discerning.

Jesus believed in the existence of demons, but generally Christians deny the existence of demons, it's an icky subject they don't like to talk about, or maybe they think they were wiped out or at the least, extremely rare. It gives you a different perspective if you allow the concept, rather than just blame everything on mental illness, or think that nullifying medication is the solution. God CAN heal anything when it comes to the mind. Chemical imbalances are also controlled by the mind, and change depending on what thoughts you choose to think, or what thoughts you feel you have no control over.

call yourself by what ever name you wish peter, you are still not sinless.

 

[dcontroversal]

The apostates, doubly dumb. God judges sin, they openly sin yet God loves them.
OSAS for them is ORAR once righteous always righteous, but the truth is still a sinner
still doomed.

This quote reeks of a particular ignorance of the word of God.........in particular the verbiage of salvation and righteousness of Christ applied by faith, the GREEK verb tense, the words eternal, everlasting, uttermost, finish, beginner and finishers, sealed and also undermines the power, work and sacrifice of Christ applied unto a believer through faith......!

 

[dcontroversal]

You tell me how I'm busted pal. It's you and your buddies who take the biscuit you and your mate etc have hounded me for 6 years... I'm not ugly with my comments because my comments are aimed at people like you condemning people to hell.. that's the real ugly truth.. yeah I think the forest is the best place for you as it suits your wild accusations and wild behavior ...

You need to get help....I have not been on here for 6 years and did not engage you till you came in here under JIMBO....so.....maybe you need to wise up and post facts man....and the busted comment was based upon the fact that numerous people asked you if you have been on here under a different name....geesh.....why are you so easily offended.....!!

 

[loveme1]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What does Revelation 3 reveal about working for Salvation?

 

[loveme1]

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

King James Version (KJV)

Does this apply to us all or just to the churches?

 

[dcontroversal]

What does Revelation 3 reveal about working for Salvation?

It does not reveal anything about working for salvation.............I am assuming you are speaking of the VERBIAGE applied unto the churches of in ASIA and any reference to the loss of the candlestick is indicative of them losing their authority collectively as a church....it has ZERO to do with salvation.....

In the grace you are, having been saved OUT OF FAITH and that NOT of YOURSELVES..IT is the GIFT OF GOD and NOT OF WORKS lest any man should BOAST

IF it is of works it is NO LONGER GRACE

God's word does not contradict itself....if salvation is based upon works then the above verse references CONTRADICT a working for salvation.....

PAUL was clear....

FAITH plus WORKS to gain, finish or maintain SALVATION is a false, double cursed different gospel which has NO POWER to save and ALL who believe it are BEWITCHED and FOOLS......

end of story!

 

[dcontroversal]

Does this apply to us all or just to the churches?

It is applied collectively unto ANY and ALL churches of the LORD.....any reference to having the candlestick STIRRED AWAY is applicable unto their authority in the eyes of GOD as a church........a church is a body and will be judged as a body....!