NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED

[SophieT]

His truth is what they could not accept (just like the Pharisees), and they left on their own because they were not chosen. Again, you seem to have a problem with John Calvin's teachings, and that's fine. I don't know much about him or his doctrines. But if we set aside what theologians teach and just ask, "what does the Bible have to say?", then we can search it out without preconceived notions. I (and perhaps you also) believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. Well, so does Catholicism. Does that mean that you identify with Catholicism in any way? I don't think so because I sure don't. It's the same with what any religion or any theologian teaches. It's what is being taught, not who is teaching it that matters.

Now, the Bible teaches (not Calvin, not me) that no human being had a choice insofar as salvation is concerned. Man's will played no part. I believe I posted some scriptures concerning this in one of my previous responses to you. Here is some of it:

"Here are a few more for you to consider and see how they agree (because agreement is the key) with the doctrine of free will.

John 1:12 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (This is the free will doctrine position, but it's incomplete. Here is the rest of the verse).

John 1:13 (KJV 1900)
Which were born (meaning, born again), not of blood (not of bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh (not born again by the will of our flesh) nor of the will of man (not born again by man's own will), but of God (but we are born again by the will of God).

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. "

Can you answer a question for me? How does John 1:13 agree with the doctrine of free will? Or James 1:18? And there are so many more. It all has to agree, and it does, but not with the free will doctrine.

But then what happens to the rest of the world? Well, God teaches us that God a just God. And that means that God must execute perfect justice according to his written law, that all have sinned and the penalty for sin is death. So, God would have been perfectly just if he decided to wipe mankind off the face of the earth, right? Well, the bible also teaches us that God is a merciful God. So, rather than let everyone perish justly because of their sins, God chose to save some for his glory. He calls them the elect. And it was their sins that Christ paid for.

God helps us understand his sovereignty in this matter by telling us about Jacob who was loved (meaning he had his sins paid for) and Jacob who was hated (meaning, he did not have his sins paid for). God answer the question of this being unfair.

Romans 9:11–16 (KJV 1900)
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 9:19–21 (KJV 1900)
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (Why does God still blame me for my sin if none can resist his will?) 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

All of this has to be taken into consideration and it has to agree with whatever doctrine we hold to be true, or else we're not holding a true doctrine.

ok not chosen again

I do not believe in predestination according to Calvin

I do not believe God has created people as fodder for the fire

I believe Jesus died for the world as the Bible states, but certainly not universalism...not all accept Christ, but we do have a choice...in fact that is illustrated by the example you give...you see it as they walked away because God said not you, not you and not you and not those other guys either.

it is also a big concern that Calvinists and those equally persuaded, do not believe the Spirit of God is at work in this world today as He has always been. they do not believe the spiritual gifts are for today and that is contrary to biblical truth. so I have to wonder how far the deception and blindness goes...for that is what it is

the Bible is not a smorgasbord

Now, the Bible teaches (not Calvin, not me) that no human being had a choice insofar as salvation is concerned. Man's will played no part.

well this is hardly revelatory. where do you think Calvinists say they get their doctrine from?

 

[SophieT]

I am glad you're still following along and asking important questions. I think you may have misunderstood me in one point. Let me clarify so we are on the same page on this one point. No unsaved person has the Holy Spirit within them, in this you are correct and I agree. I never meant to say that by my response.

Now, let's leave Calvin out of this equation, it only matters what the Bible teaches, but that is correct, no one is ever saved by keeping any of God's commandments because doing so would be a work. Well, were you aware that "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is indeed a commandment and not a plea? Here it is:

LOL! I would like to remind you this is a DISCUSSION forum and not a teaching platform. Perhaps you misunderstood that? (don't take offense...I am a straightforward person and I do also like some levity)

well I am glad to see you do not believe that unsaved folk are indwelt by the Holy Spirit...but I have read many times in this forum that hard core Calvinists do believe that, so good we agree there and thanks

BUT...you do use the term 'chosen' as in no choice which is why so many walked away from Christ. we disagree there

another BUT...and again, where do you suppose Calvin claimed his teaching came from? as do you

see, it is life or death to grasp what God is saying to us and He has turned none away that come to Him through His son

perhaps you do not grasp the ramifications of what you are posting about....if we believe God creates and knows each one of us, then what has happened to those who, as you say, 'are NOT chosen'? are they created just to burn? think about that. that is what you and all who believe as you do, are saying. sure, you can pick certain passages or verses that might indicate such things, but that is NOT the whole counsel of scripture

cont' on with this post of yours following cause rambling long posts often go neglected...prob not by you though

 

[Absolutely]

Part of what you are dealing with here on this site is what I call mental believers versus Spirit-filled believers.
What I mean is there are those that have a true relationship with Jesus as a person a living talkin person and friend.
Jesus is real to them they talk with him ,not only to him.
they walk with him not only for him.
They hear his voice. They are illuminated By the Light of the Holy Spirit. They feel his favor on them and the warmth of his presence throughout the day.
And boy oh boy when they sin, it is as if a hundred daggers are sticking out of them. It is unbearable.
They seek to find their way back, "in anguish".
Now conversely you will see mental Believers here. They do not counsel with God as far as getting feedback. God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are abstracts. They they know about them. But there is no back and forth. If you look at a certain thread, I believe it is called "not by works", you will see the struggle that people on this board are having with the dynamic of salvation.

 

[Absolutely]

LOL! I would like to remind you this is a DISCUSSION forum and not a teaching platform. Perhaps you misunderstood that? (don't take offense...I am a straightforward person and I do also like some levity)

well I am glad to see you do not believe that unsaved folk are indwelt by the Holy Spirit...but I have read many times in this forum that hard core Calvinists do believe that, so good we agree there and thanks

BUT...you do use the term 'chosen' as in no choice which is why so many walked away from Christ. we disagree there

another BUT...and again, where do you suppose Calvin claimed his teaching came from? as do you

see, it is life or death to grasp what God is saying to us and He has turned none away that come to Him through His son

perhaps you do not grasp the ramifications of what you are posting about....if we believe God creates and knows each one of us, then what has happened to those who, as you say, 'are NOT chosen'? are they created just to burn? think about that. that is what you and all who believe as you do, are saying. sure, you can pick certain passages or verses that might indicate such things, but that is NOT the whole counsel of scripture

cont' on with this post of yours following cause rambling long posts often go neglected...prob not by you though

Hmmmmm
You got my wheels turning.
Is this a disguised calvin dynamic thread?

 

[SophieT]

Now, let's leave Calvin out of this equation, it only matters what the Bible teaches, but that is correct, no one is ever saved by keeping any of God's commandments because doing so would be a work. Well, were you aware that "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is indeed a commandment and not a plea? Here it is:

1 John 3:23 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

well, even here looks like we can disobey. right? I mean all the commandments have been broken and we know that not everyone believes...now love one another is often disobeyed...but there it is just the same

I never thought Peter was begging or pleading...he had just been filled with the Holy Spirit with visible 'tongues of fire', was speaking in tongues along with the rest in the upper room and with that imbuement of power from God through His Spirit, addressed the crowd

the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces...does not force, but there is not other power to compare to Him

if you have ever had this experience, you would not doubt it

 

[SophieT]

Hmmmmm
You got my wheels turning.
Is this a disguised calvin dynamic thread?

well, as the op likes to say, ignore Calvin....cause he got his doctrine from the Bible...so (long breath required) we is all just a talkin bout the Bible here. there are variations on the Calvin theme though I am finding out

right

 

[SophieT]

Part of what you are dealing with here on this site is what I call mental believers versus Spirit-filled believers.
What I mean is there are those that have a true relationship with Jesus as a person a living talkin person and friend.
Jesus is real to them they talk with him ,not only to him.
they walk with him not only for him.
They hear his voice. They are illuminated By the Light of the Holy Spirit. They feel his favor on them and the warmth of his presence throughout the day.
And boy oh boy when they sin, it is as if a hundred daggers are sticking out of them. It is unbearable.
They seek to find their way back, "in anguish".
Now conversely you will see mental Believers here. They do not counsel with God as far as getting feedback. God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are abstracts. They they know about them. But there is no back and forth. If you look at a certain thread, I believe it is called "not by works", you will see the struggle that people on this board are having with the dynamic of salvation.

having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof come to mind

 

[SophieT]

Hello Sophie, there is a wink emoji in my reply to you in post #67. That appeared inadvertently as there must have been a semi colon and a period side by side when I quoted the verse. I never put those in any of my posts and there is no edit button for me to remove it. I think they are uncalled for in Bible discussions, and just wanted to make you aware of it. Thanks

oh no! gasp

well, most of us use them...I do myself...a picture is worth a thousand words and all that

no worries

 

[SophieT]

Got it. So, since you are unwilling to do what the scriptures instruct us to do in rightly dividing the word of truth and compare the whole Bible with the whole Bible to make sure we have correct doctrine, then what more is there for me to say? And if you consider comparing scripture with scripture as fiddling with the gospel, then, again, it seems our discussion is halted here.

I have a problem with this

what is the problem? YOU suggesting that another person is unwilling to follow your lead so therefore they are beneath a proper response

oh if you would only know how many many folks have that attitude, it would hurt your heart

you have a problem with discussion when someone disagrees? you are in the wrong place

again, this is the BDF...BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM

no one is posting heresy here...this particular op is a common one here so fasten your seatbelt

 

[Nehemiah6]

...there are variations on the Calvin theme though I am finding out

Calvin contradicted himself (and the Bible) when it suited him. But that is another topic.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

hey ~

every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord...from Romans 14:11

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2: 10-11

well for one, showing the power of the Holy Spirit flowing through one individual who prayed according to the will of God and what followed was not emotion but the Spirit of God touching every individual there...and the village as well....every person there was saved by the end of the wk (I think he said?)

this is the work of the Holy Spirit...to convict and draw all to Christ

I could say more, but I guess that is the synopsis....we have accounts of God moving this way in the OT on behalf of the Israelites and also in Acts on the day of Pentecost....the fire fell as they say

but I am not sure exactly why you asked me to view this and then explain?

if this is in reference to the op, the teaching is that a person has no control over whether or not they are saved and the Holy Spirit enters a person for a person to be saved...which I do not agree with

so....not sure what you believe

oh..and faith is not a work as the op is teaching

I posted the video link because it is a Calvinist community in the Outer Hebrides. No more a strong Calvinist place you can find. And the point about the revival that was narrated by Duncan Campbell (Hebridean Revival) is that an entire village was effected with people being saved in every household and in the instant that the power of God fell on that small Island. Not one of them heard the gospel and there was no organised attempt to reach them with the Gospel. The people in the church were also unbelievers and they came because the Revival was happening across every Island in the group. By this time many thousands had been saved and over 70% of them never heard the gospel being preached. The people in the church in this witness were exercised in the Holy Spirit before they came to faith. That is that strong or radical Calvinism you say you don't believe in.

As to why I know these things:

The video narration is in my church video library and the boy called Donald Macphail in the witness was a friend of mine in ministry during the early 1990's on the Isle of Lewis. I knew quiet a few people who were saved in that Hebridean Revival.

As to my formal work in ministry to help brethren understand these things - especially what being saved means I have posted a small portion on this forum in a blog post. Not important for sure - but too rational for many Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Salvation

 

[Mofastus]

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
.

 

[fredoheaven]

"Here are a few more for you to consider and see how they agree (because agreement is the key) with the doctrine of free will.

John 1:12 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (This is the free will doctrine position, but it's incomplete. Here is the rest of the verse).

John 1:13 (KJV 1900)
Which were born (meaning, born again), not of blood (not of bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh (not born again by the will of our flesh) nor of the will of man (not born again by man's own will), but of God (but we are born again by the will of God).

Here are some misconceptions regarding John 1:12.

First, this is not an Arminian view. It is a Bible view.

Second, Yes, we are not born again physically but spiritually, not the will of man (physically begat)but it is God’s will (spiritually begat either by God’s word and his Spirit James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23

Third, Yes, it is God’s will that ALL must believe in Christ to be saved or have eternal life (John 3:15-16, John 6:47; John 20:31) ). Of course, nothing here is contradictory about receiving or believing Christ to become a child of God. It is God’s will to all to receive or believe him and become a child of God.

 

[Blik]

I’ll tell you what. If you want to start over and have a normal conversation where we take turns answering each other’s questions I’m all game.

I didn't think I wasn't having a normal conversation with you about our differences in understanding scripture.

As I understand you, you believe that to have faith in Christ does not require us to have faith enough in all Christ tells us to act on that faith to be saved. Our differences seem to revolve around what we thing God means by believe in Christ, and have faith in Christ. It is knowing God's definition of faith and believe in Christ. I believe those words require faith and belief enough to result in action, you don't think action is required.

Of course, action is required is what James tells us in his word, but also Matthew 3:2 and Matthew 4:17, telling us to repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Even though it was that Christ overcame death for us that was his greatest work, his teachings did not revolve around that. His teachings were about repentance so we could live as if it was the kingdom of heaven on this earth. We pray, Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven every day.

God tells us this when He explains "faith". He says faith is like what Jacob did when he though God asked him to sacrifice his beloved son. Through faith Jacob was willing to act on this and we are told this is what faith is. We are saved through faith.

 

[SophieT]

I posted the video link because it is a Calvinist community in the Outer Hebrides. No more a strong Calvinist place you can find. And the point about the revival that was narrated by Duncan Campbell (Hebridean Revival) is that an entire village was effected with people being saved in every household and in the instant that the power of God fell on that small Island. Not one of them heard the gospel and there was no organised attempt to reach them with the Gospel. The people in the church were also unbelievers and they came because the Revival was happening across every Island in the group. By this time many thousands had been saved and over 70% of them never heard the gospel being preached. The people in the church in this witness were exercised in the Holy Spirit before they came to faith. That is that strong or radical Calvinism you say you don't believe in.

As to why I know these things:

The video narration is in my church video library and the boy called Donald Macphail in the witness was a friend of mine in ministry during the early 1990's on the Isle of Lewis. I knew quiet a few people who were saved in that Hebridean Revival.

As to my formal work in ministry to help brethren understand these things - especially what being saved means I have posted a small portion on this forum in a blog post. Not important for sure - but too rational for many Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Salvation

have you studied Calvinism (I'm sure you have)

I am disagreeing with the Calvinist construct that the Holy Spirit fills people before they are saved

I have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit fell upon the congregation or the village

I see nothing in scripture that indicates the Holy Spirit indwells a person in order to save them

please don't think you know all or even part of what I believe. thanks

I am not a stranger to the Holy Spirit nor the fact that He does not need our permission to leave the borders some place on Him

 

[SophieT]

Calvin contradicted himself (and the Bible) when it suited him. But that is another topic.

or murdered those who opposed him

lovely man

 

[SophieT]

I posted the video link because it is a Calvinist community in the Outer Hebrides. No more a strong Calvinist place you can find. And the point about the revival that was narrated by Duncan Campbell (Hebridean Revival) is that an entire village was effected with people being saved in every household and in the instant that the power of God fell on that small Island. Not one of them heard the gospel and there was no organised attempt to reach them with the Gospel. The people in the church were also unbelievers and they came because the Revival was happening across every Island in the group. By this time many thousands had been saved and over 70% of them never heard the gospel being preached. The people in the church in this witness were exercised in the Holy Spirit before they came to faith. That is that strong or radical Calvinism you say you don't believe in.

As to why I know these things:

The video narration is in my church video library and the boy called Donald Macphail in the witness was a friend of mine in ministry during the early 1990's on the Isle of Lewis. I knew quiet a few people who were saved in that Hebridean Revival.

As to my formal work in ministry to help brethren understand these things - especially what being saved means I have posted a small portion on this forum in a blog post. Not important for sure - but too rational for many Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Salvation

adding to my first reply

it does not matter to me how Calvinist anyone is, God saves according to his word anyway

not one Calvinist is ever saved any different from others, the reasoning is that they are chosen and those not Calvinist believe we have accepted Christ and have not acted according to some cosmic list of acceptables as opposed to those already passed over

anyway, I'm not trying to split hairs

 

[Rhomphaeam]

have you studied Calvinism (I'm sure you have)

I am disagreeing with the Calvinist construct that the Holy Spirit fills people before they are saved

I have no problem acknowledging that the Holy Spirit fell upon the congregation or the village

I see nothing in scripture that indicates the Holy Spirit indwells a person in order to save them

please don't think you know all or even part of what I believe. thanks

I am not a stranger to the Holy Spirit nor the fact that He does not need our permission to leave the borders some place on Him

I wasn't making any presumptions about what you know or what you believe at all. I was simply making a provable case that thousands of believers got saved in the Hebridean Revival who not only didn't hear the Gospel - but expressly had no power to resist being converted unto a living faith. And yes I am a Calvinist. The Calvinist construct you may mean is that the Holy Spirit gives life and regenerates people out of which they come to a living faith - as a gift of God and a fruit of the Spirit. Not really the same precept as being filled. The term has been ruined by the Pentecostals and the Charismatics. Thats all I was saying and hence that is all I quoted of your own.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

adding to my first reply

it does not matter to me how Calvinist anyone is, God saves according to his word anyway

not one Calvinist is ever saved any different from others, the reasoning is that they are chosen and those not Calvinist believe we have accepted Christ and have not acted according to some cosmic list of acceptables as opposed to those already passed over

anyway, I'm not trying to split hairs

I believe that it is important to have a sound doctrine when we are preaching or witnessing the Gospel of Grace into Christ Jesus - if only because folks are likely to have a more secure conversion that way. That may only matter when others disturb our faith with false doctrines amounting to another Gospel after we are saved. It will save us countless times of misery if we know that we are secure in the Father's sovereign will.

The audio clip makes the point about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and a living faith in the witness by Duncan Campbell regarding Donald Macphail. Donald was baptised with power in the Holy Spirit two weeks after he believed. That is what Duncan bears witness to. He also doesn't try to explain what happened in the church when several hundred unbelievers were put into a trance on one side of the church - or several hundred more were literally thrown all over the pews on the other side of the church. And neither does he attempt to explain how many more unbelievers could be suddenly converted and make a profession of faith in every house in a village five miles away from the church. He simply explains is as God is sovereign.

Like yourself I am not trying to split hairs. Yet it is that very precept of volitional will - be that the will of the man or of the Father that divides. So I wrote the details in the link I provided nearly 40 years ago to explain why believers may need to study the Greek in order to understand what is being written in the English translation that speaks of Salvation.

 

[EddieRamos]

I'll just say that, according to Ephesians 2:8-9, faith is not a work, it's a gift. So when someone has faith we can't say that they produced a work of self-effort to become saved.

Eph. 2:8-9 KJV
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I remember this experience keenly when I first heard the gospel so many years ago. I remember thinking, "Okay, I really want to believe this but honestly I can't right now." and I proceeded to pretend and walk the walk. I abandoned the church I was going to after two years and self-identified as an atheist for the next 8-10 years. At some point, when I was working my hardest to distance myself from God, is when I found faith in God. I didn't produce the faith, actually if I had my way I still would have resisted, but I couldn't resist anymore. When I finally admitted to myself and others that I believe in God, I believe in the Gospel of Christ, I knew that God had given my the gift of faith. That's how it works.

Well, fortunately we are not the ones who get to define what faith is, because, if so, there will always be divisions, as you can see. But when we let the Bible teach us whether it's a work or not, then we can be sure.

God's words tells us that faith alone cannot save because faith alone is dead. It must be accompanied by works in order to save.

James 2:14 (KJV)
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (The answer is no, as the following verse will teach this).

James 2:19-20 (KJV) 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:17 (KJV) 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Saving faith without works is dead faith. Could this faith save anyone? The Bible says no.

This helps us understand Eph 2.

Eph. 2:8-9 KJV
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God's elect were saved by grace through faith, but not our faith, else it had to be accompanied by our works. That's why it says that salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves. It is all a gift of God. Salvation is not of works (not of our works) so that no man can boast. It is all the work of Christ. Salvation is by grace through the faith of Christ. And the Bible continues to agree.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV 1900)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

And what are the works of the law? Every commandment that God has given throughout his word. Including this one.

1 John 3:23 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Lastly, one's personal testimony should never be used as a way to understand the scriptures because no part of scripture is of any private interpretation. Only the scriptures can interpret the scriptures if we're actually looking to arrive at truth.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (KJV 1900)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.