NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED

[EddieRamos]

The Bible does not contain contradictions so Isaiah 64:7 doesn’t apply the same way as Acts 2:21.

We agree that the Bible doesn't contain any contradictions. That is why when we come across apparently conflicting verses that speak to the same issue, that we have to dig deeper for correct understanding. Scripture is not to be taken at face value unless the Bible allows it, it is a spiritual book that needs to be compared, spiritual with spiritual. In other words, what does the text mean by what it says. Christ (the word of God) (who always taught in parables) gave us plenty of examples concerning this truth.

 

[EddieRamos]

We are drawn to him and for me at least it took me ebing at my worst being compeltely broken to the point I saw my life as trash and didn't care if I lived or died. Perhaps it sometimes takes a true brokeness to have a truly repentant heart

It only takes salvation to have a truly repentant heart. But God will indeed bring many things in our life, some good some bad, but all for our good if we are truly born again.

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Blain]

It only takes salvation to have a truly repentant heart. But God will indeed bring many things in our life, some good some bad, but all for our good if we are truly born again.

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Can one be saved without first having repentance? Or is it perhaps for some repentance is something that happens after they are saved?

 

[EddieRamos]

Can one be saved without first having repentance? Or is it perhaps for some repentance is something that happens after they are saved?

Good question. The Bible defines repentance as a work, so it could never have saved us. Let's take a look:

Jonah 3:5–10 (KJV 1900)
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God saw their works, which was repentance, and he did not destroy them. This is how we let the Bible define its own terms and not we ourselves. Therefore, the commandment to "repent", like the commandment to "believe" or any other commandment, never saved anyone because they are all works of righteousness which we have done.

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Therefore, salvation preceded repentance and believing. We first had to be made alive (like dead Lazarus) before we could obey any of God's commandments, and being first made alive is called salvation.

 

[Blain]

Good question. The Bible defines repentance as a work, so it could never have saved us. Let's take a look:

Jonah 3:5–10 (KJV 1900)
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God saw their works, which was repentance, and he did not destroy them. This is how we let the Bible define its own terms and not we ourselves. Therefore, the commandment to "repent", like the commandment to "believe" or any other commandment, never saved anyone because they are all works of righteousness which we have done.

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Therefore, salvation preceded repentance and believing. We first had to be made alive (like dead Lazarus) before we could obey any of God's commandments, and being first made alive is called salvation.

I am curious on what you think about predestination. Do you believe that anyone can be saved if they come to him or does God have a set chosen people?

 

[EddieRamos]

I am curious on what you think about predestination. Do you believe that anyone can be saved if they come to him or does God have a set chosen people?

What I or anyone thinks is rubbish. My opinion is meaningless. This is why we must always seek out what the scriptures actually teach by comparing spiritual with spiritual. The first truth we have to acknowledge is that the Bible certainly talks about those who are predestinated.

Ephesians 1:4–6 (KJV 1900)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So, not only does God talk about predestination here, but he also defines what it is. It is having been chosen in him before the foundation of the world. This passage even tells by what merit God made choice among mankind. It was by the good pleasure of his will. This is a truth that many, but many have a hard time with, so they leave it out of their doctrines and out of their gospel, which in turn nullifies their gospel as no gospel at all.

Anytime we leave out any bit of truth from a doctrine, we will always end up with an incorrect doctrine. So this leaves us with your initial question which is answered by Christ:

John 6:44 (KJV 1900)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This doesn't stop people from coming to him anyway and identifying as a Christian and call themselves children of God, but they are coming to Christ on their own terms and not because God called them. This becomes evident in their life as they don't last very long in following the truth. Eventually, they leave the truth of God's Word just as Christ's disciples left him because they were never called to begin with.

John 6:64–65 (KJV 1900)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The fact that Jesus was speaking to former disciples teaches us that they came to Christ of their own will, but to no avail because they were not predestined, thus not called.

 

[Blik]

Can one be saved without first having repentance? Or is it perhaps for some repentance is something that happens after they are saved?

My wondering and meditating on repentance is even more than when it happens. I wonder if we can feel we really can't give up some sin so actually we keep it and go to Christ telling him we wish we could give it up.

I have seen this happen with judgments and unforgiveness toward someone. Can we still be forgiven? Does keeping a sin mean we are not saved?

 

[Runningman]

Are you judging people and falsely accusing them of not believing scripture. You need to read further in the word, it defines the word believe. What of Christ do you believe in?

I’ll tell you what. If you want to start over and have a normal conversation where we take turns answering each other’s questions I’m all game.

 

[Runningman]

Claiming something is about a different context is the easy way out. But if you look at it again, the context is about mankind's sinful condition who does not call upon the name of the Lord nor stir himself up to take hold of God. Therefore, since this is the condition of mankind before salvation, then something has to happen to cause mankind to call upon the name of the Lord. What is it?

It’s about a different context for sure because the Bible does. It contain contradictions. Don’t you agree? I assume you agree. So obviously two contradictory terms cannot be true at the same time, that means the contexts are different. That’s just rightly-dividing the word.

Your post-crucifixion example of calling on the name of the Lord is a path to salvation according to Acts 2:21.

 

[Runningman]

We agree that the Bible doesn't contain any contradictions. That is why when we come across apparently conflicting verses that speak to the same issue, that we have to dig deeper for correct understanding. Scripture is not to be taken at face value unless the Bible allows it, it is a spiritual book that needs to be compared, spiritual with spiritual. In other words, what does the text mean by what it says. Christ (the word of God) (who always taught in parables) gave us plenty of examples concerning this truth.

You can disregard any verses that say that calling on the Lord does not save you, because you have a post-crucifxion example in Acts 2:21 that plainly states that calling on the name of the Lord saves you.

 

[Runningman]

It’s about a different context for sure because the Bible does. It contain contradictions. Don’t you agree? I assume you agree. So obviously two contradictory terms cannot be true at the same time, that means the contexts are different. That’s just rightly-dividing the word.

Your post-crucifixion example of calling on the name of the Lord is a path to salvation according to Acts 2:21.

The Bible does not contain contradictions. I had a typo there and missed the edit window.

 

[EddieRamos]

You can disregard any verses that say that calling on the Lord does not save you, because you have a post-crucifxion example in Acts 2:21 that plainly states that calling on the name of the Lord saves you.

Again, pre or post crucifixion makes no difference to the condition of an unsaved individual, it has always and will always be the same. And these are not contradictory passages, they are apparently contradictory, which means that even though they seem to disagree, they actually don't, and we have to dig deeper in order to find out how they agree. Discarding one because it's Old Testament versus one in the New Testament isn't the way to go.

Remember, God saiud that ALL scripture is given for doctrine (2 Tim 3:16). That means it all has to be taken into account. By the way, this isn't by any means the only apparently contradictory passage in the scriptures. There are tons.

Matthew 11:28 (KJV)
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

No restrictions or conditions here that I can see, how about you? And so people, at their own will and desire, do just that. They come to Christ, believe, get baptized, etc, and later they go back to the things of the world and reject the truth of God's word.

Or, some might come to him, and knives a good life,, trying their best to live a godly life, but their doctrine reveals the true condition of their heart and they don't even realize it.

That's because there actually is more to what Jesus said here, and here it is:

John 6:44 (KJV)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So, now we have another piece of the puzzle. In Chriat making the statement, "come to me all ye.....", we now kearn that there is a problem. That actually, no one can come to him (the way God requires it) without first God drawing (forcefully) that individual. For example, we can say that Saul of Tarsus came to Christ. But not willingly, he was actually persecuting Christ and was killing those who preached his name.

Yet, when God decided to reveal to Paul that he was separated and chosen for salvation, God in his own time, revealed that Christ was already in Him. And so, Paul came to Christ.

Galatians 1:13-16 (KJV)
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

This is how the Bible teaches us to resolve apparent contradictions, by comparing scripture with scripture, rather than ignoring them as non relevant or out of context.

So, when we go back and re examine any passage that has to do with man’s spiritual condition before salvation, we learn that the cross didn't change that as the book of Romansbquotes from the Old Testament to teach us that unsaved mankind still continues in his depraved state.

Psalms 14:2-3 (KJV)
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-12 (KJV)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Man's spiritual condition in their unsaved state, never changes. This once again forces us to re examine Isaiah 64:7 with Acts 2:20. And when we begin putting all the correct pieces together, we learn that no one calls upon the name of God, unless God first drew them to himself and first saved them.

 

[Runningman]

Again, pre or post crucifixion makes no difference to the condition of an unsaved individual, it has always and will always be the same. And these are not contradictory passages, they are apparently contradictory, which means that even though they seem to disagree, they actually don't, and we have to dig deeper in order to find out how they agree. Discarding one because it's Old Testament versus one in the New Testament isn't the way to go.

Remember, God saiud that ALL scripture is given for doctrine (2 Tim 3:16). That means it all has to be taken into account. By the way, this isn't by any means the only apparently contradictory passage in the scriptures. There are tons.

Matthew 11:28 (KJV)
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

No restrictions or conditions here that I can see, how about you? And so people, at their own will and desire, do just that. They come to Christ, believe, get baptized, etc, and later they go back to the things of the world and reject the truth of God's word.

Or, some might come to him, and knives a good life,, trying their best to live a godly life, but their doctrine reveals the true condition of their heart and they don't even realize it.

That's because there actually is more to what Jesus said here, and here it is:

John 6:44 (KJV)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Someone's apparent worldliness isn't an accurate yardstick to determine if they are in Christ or not.

As Paul pointed out in 1 Corinthians 3, worldly people void of fruits of the Holy Spirit can still be "in Christ" while practicing carnality, envying, strife, and having divisions.

1 Cor. 3:1-3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

So, now we have another piece of the puzzle. In Chriat making the statement, "come to me all ye.....", we now kearn that there is a problem. That actually, no one can come to him (the way God requires it) without first God drawing (forcefully) that individual. For example, we can say that Saul of Tarsus came to Christ. But not willingly, he was actually persecuting Christ and was killing those who preached his name.

I disagree that being forcefully converted is how God draws all people to Himself. That's not a common Biblical example. Often people just come to God because they were drawn in the most seemingly natural and gentle way.

Yet, when God decided to reveal to Paul that he was separated and chosen for salvation, God in his own time, revealed that Christ was already in Him. And so, Paul came to Christ.

Galatians 1:13-16 (KJV)
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

This is how the Bible teaches us to resolve apparent contradictions, by comparing scripture with scripture, rather than ignoring them as non relevant or out of context.

So, when we go back and re examine any passage that has to do with man’s spiritual condition before salvation, we learn that the cross didn't change that as the book of Romansbquotes from the Old Testament to teach us that unsaved mankind still continues in his depraved state.

Psalms 14:2-3 (KJV)
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-12 (KJV)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Because of the cross, that's why all people are drawn to Christ. The cross changed everything.

John 12:32
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Man's spiritual condition in their unsaved state, never changes. This once again forces us to re examine Isaiah 64:7 with Acts 2:20. And when we begin putting all the correct pieces together, we learn that no one calls upon the name of God, unless God first drew them to himself and first saved them.

The Bible goes hand-in-hand with reality. If someone who isn't saved is capable of "calling on the name of the Lord" then that disproves your theory. It turns out that anyone can utter the words "Lord save me" and get saved that way.

Acts 2:21 says that the prerequisite for being saved is calling on the name of the Lord, not being saved prior to calling on the name of the Lord. If all of the pieces are going to fit then there shouldn't be any holes in the theology.

 

[Blain]

My wondering and meditating on repentance is even more than when it happens. I wonder if we can feel we really can't give up some sin so actually we keep it and go to Christ telling him we wish we could give it up.

I have seen this happen with judgments and unforgiveness toward someone. Can we still be forgiven? Does keeping a sin mean we are not saved?

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and some have certain sins that they struggle with more than others, it isn't that we cannot give it up but we have to fight the good fight in the struggle against it because we are overcomers and by God's grace in the up hill climb to overcome that sin when we fall and stumble which we will he is quick to forgive us.

We will always fall and stumble and for some it is the thorn in our side and we might always have to struggle against it but God teaches us patience and restraint though his holy spirit.

 

[Blain]

What I or anyone thinks is rubbish. My opinion is meaningless. This is why we must always seek out what the scriptures actually teach by comparing spiritual with spiritual. The first truth we have to acknowledge is that the Bible certainly talks about those who are predestinated.

Ephesians 1:4–6 (KJV 1900)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So, not only does God talk about predestination here, but he also defines what it is. It is having been chosen in him before the foundation of the world. This passage even tells by what merit God made choice among mankind. It was by the good pleasure of his will. This is a truth that many, but many have a hard time with, so they leave it out of their doctrines and out of their gospel, which in turn nullifies their gospel as no gospel at all.

Anytime we leave out any bit of truth from a doctrine, we will always end up with an incorrect doctrine. So this leaves us with your initial question which is answered by Christ:

John 6:44 (KJV 1900)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This doesn't stop people from coming to him anyway and identifying as a Christian and call themselves children of God, but they are coming to Christ on their own terms and not because God called them. This becomes evident in their life as they don't last very long in following the truth. Eventually, they leave the truth of God's Word just as Christ's disciples left him because they were never called to begin with.

John 6:64–65 (KJV 1900)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The fact that Jesus was speaking to former disciples teaches us that they came to Christ of their own will, but to no avail because they were not predestined, thus not called.

I see. I admit I have always struggled with this particular thing just thinking that for some no matter what they did they would end up in hell because they were not predestined or chosen and then thinking how I could have easily been one of them.

But what you have said makes sense and it is true that many call themselves Christian but either don't last or simply are Christian by title only showing no fruits of the spirit and are the religious type. And him knowing us and preordaining us makes sense to me as I have always felt something slightly familiar about him as if a long forgotten dream.

 

[EddieRamos]

Someone's apparent worldliness isn't an accurate yardstick to determine if they are in Christ or not.

As Paul pointed out in 1 Corinthians 3, worldly people void of fruits of the Holy Spirit can still be "in Christ" while practicing carnality, envying, strife, and having divisions.

1 Cor. 3:1-3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I'm not sure what part of my conversation your relating this to. I wasn't speaking of saved individuals who still struggle in their sin.

I disagree that being forcefully converted is how God draws all people to Himself. That's not a common Biblical example. Often people just come to God because they were drawn in the most seemingly natural and gentle way..

That's because you're defining the word "draw" based on your own understanding rather than by using the scriptures. Thus Greek word only appears 8 times and the clear uses of this word help us to understand their intended meaning in the obscure passages. 6 times this word is set in the context of being dragged or moved by force. This helps us know how God intends for this word to be understood.

No man can come unless dragged. Why? Because man in their unsaved condition love darkness rather than light. In John21:11, we see a great example of what it takes to bring in the catch of fish. They had to be "drawn" to shore, meaning "dragged" not "compelled". A fish in a net is doing anything he possibly can not to get pulled in by that net and therefore has to be dragged in.

John 21:11 (KJV) 11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

This parable teaches us that since God likens fish to men, then the work of salvation works the same way. Now we can better understand why Christ says that no man can come to me unless they are "drawn" (meaning dragged). It's because of our own will, none will come in the way that God requires it.

Because of the cross, that's why all people are drawn to Christ. The cross changed everything.

John 12:32
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me..

Once we understand how God defines the word "draw", we know that this verse doesn't mean that every single human being will be drawn (dragged) to Christ, because to be drawn (dragged) is to be caught by the net and pulled in (meaning) saved. As a matter of fact, the word "men" isn't in the original text. So, it says, "I will draw all unto me?". All what? The context of the Bible and the definition of the word "draw" teach us that he's talking about all the elect.

The Bible goes hand-in-hand with reality. If someone who isn't saved is capable of "calling on the name of the Lord" then that disproves your theory. It turns out that anyone can utter the words "Lord save me" and get saved that way.

The moment we attempt to use our own logic to understand the spiritual word of God, we will arrive at conclusions such as this. One's physical action does not impact his spiritual condition unto salvation. Just like true Salvation doesn't impact our physical body once we become saved.

John 6:63 (KJV) 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This is why people can physically call out to God and can physically say a prayer and can physically live a life according to God's commandment and still not be saved. This is the danger of ignoring everything the scriptures gave to say on any matter.

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV) 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Acts 2:21 says that the prerequisite for being saved is calling on the name of the Lord, not being saved prior to calling on the name of the Lord. If all of the pieces are going to fit then there shouldn't be any holes in the theology.

This is not a prerequisite nor is believing (having faith). Anything anyone does to become saved is a work which could never save. Regeneration must have first taken place. There's only holes in this theology if we think the way you do.

Lazarus is another example of God's salvation which is typified by the raising of the dead. What could Lazarus do to come to life? Could he call on the name of the Lord? Of course not. This is God's way of teaching us what we are capable of doing prior to salvation, which is absolutely nothing.

Before Lazarus could obey Christ's command to come forth, he first had to be given life. That is what salvation is. Then Lazarus could respond and obey any commandment given to him.

My opening post provides plenty of examples of people believing with their own will, but to no avail.

 

[EddieRamos]

I see. I admit I have always struggled with this particular thing just thinking that for some no matter what they did they would end up in hell because they were not predestined or chosen and then thinking how I could have easily been one of them.

But what you have said makes sense and it is true that many call themselves Christian but either don't last or simply are Christian by title only showing no fruits of the spirit and are the religious type. And him knowing us and preordaining us makes sense to me as I have always felt something slightly familiar about him as if a long forgotten dream.

The topic of what hell actually is and the punishment of the unsaved, is a good conversation for another topic. But unsaved man does not go to a place of eternal conscious torment forever and ever. He dies and ceases to exist. That is the penalty of sin, it's death.

Romans 6:23 (KJV) 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This demonstrates the mercy and kindness of God in not torturing the unsaved in a place called hell forevermore. The doctrine of hell has long been misunderstood. But perhaps it's best left for another thread.

 

[Runningman]

I'm not sure what part of my conversation your relating this to. I wasn't speaking of saved individuals who still struggle in their sin.



That's because you're defining the word "draw" based on your own understanding rather than by using the scriptures. Thus Greek word only appears 8 times and the clear uses of this word help us to understand their intended meaning in the obscure passages. 6 times this word is set in the context of being dragged or moved by force. This helps us know how God intends for this word to be understood.

No man can come unless dragged. Why? Because man in their unsaved condition love darkness rather than light. In John21:11, we see a great example of what it takes to bring in the catch of fish. They had to be "drawn" to shore, meaning "dragged" not "compelled". A fish in a net is doing anything he possibly can not to get pulled in by that net and therefore has to be dragged in.

John 21:11 (KJV) 11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

This parable teaches us that since God likens fish to men, then the work of salvation works the same way. Now we can better understand why Christ says that no man can come to me unless they are "drawn" (meaning dragged). It's because of our own will, none will come in the way that God requires it.



Once we understand how God defines the word "draw", we know that this verse doesn't mean that every single human being will be drawn (dragged) to Christ, because to be drawn (dragged) is to be caught by the net and pulled in (meaning) saved. As a matter of fact, the word "men" isn't in the original text. So, it says, "I will draw all unto me?". All what? The context of the Bible and the definition of the word "draw" teach us that he's talking about all the elect.



The moment we attempt to use our own logic to understand the spiritual word of God, we will arrive at conclusions such as this. One's physical action does not impact his spiritual condition unto salvation. Just like true Salvation doesn't impact our physical body once we become saved.

John 6:63 (KJV) 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This is why people can physically call out to God and can physically say a prayer and can physically live a life according to God's commandment and still not be saved. This is the danger of ignoring everything the scriptures gave to say on any matter.

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV) 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



This is not a prerequisite nor is believing (having faith). Anything anyone does to become saved is a work which could never save. Regeneration must have first taken place. There's only holes in this theology if we think the way you do.

Lazarus is another example of God's salvation which is typified by the raising of the dead. What could Lazarus do to come to life? Could he call on the name of the Lord? Of course not. This is God's way of teaching us what we are capable of doing prior to salvation, which is absolutely nothing.

Before Lazarus could obey Christ's command to come forth, he first had to be given life. That is what salvation is. Then Lazarus could respond and obey any commandment given to him.

My opening post provides plenty of examples of people believing with their own will, but to no avail.

I'll just say that, according to Ephesians 2:8-9, faith is not a work, it's a gift. So when someone has faith we can't say that they produced a work of self-effort to become saved.

Eph. 2:8-9 KJV
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I remember this experience keenly when I first heard the gospel so many years ago. I remember thinking, "Okay, I really want to believe this but honestly I can't right now." and I proceeded to pretend and walk the walk. I abandoned the church I was going to after two years and self-identified as an atheist for the next 8-10 years. At some point, when I was working my hardest to distance myself from God, is when I found faith in God. I didn't produce the faith, actually if I had my way I still would have resisted, but I couldn't resist anymore. When I finally admitted to myself and others that I believe in God, I believe in the Gospel of Christ, I knew that God had given my the gift of faith. That's how it works.

 

[SophieT]

Listen to this nine minute audio and then explain what happened here in this revival meeting on the Island of Berneray. Thanks.

hey ~

every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord...from Romans 14:11

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2: 10-11

well for one, showing the power of the Holy Spirit flowing through one individual who prayed according to the will of God and what followed was not emotion but the Spirit of God touching every individual there...and the village as well....every person there was saved by the end of the wk (I think he said?)

this is the work of the Holy Spirit...to convict and draw all to Christ

I could say more, but I guess that is the synopsis....we have accounts of God moving this way in the OT on behalf of the Israelites and also in Acts on the day of Pentecost....the fire fell as they say

but I am not sure exactly why you asked me to view this and then explain?

if this is in reference to the op, the teaching is that a person has no control over whether or not they are saved and the Holy Spirit enters a person for a person to be saved...which I do not agree with

so....not sure what you believe

oh..and faith is not a work as the op is teaching

 

[fredoheaven]

The best way to begin this study, is to look for a verse that plainly states what we have to do to be saved, here is one:

Acts 16:30-31
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Great, we found the first verse which specifically uses the word we wish to study, it’s the word “believe”. Now what? Where do we turn next to find out what this word "believe" means? A dictionary? How about a Christian dictionary? Google? No, none of the above, but why not? Because we're not studying any ordinary book, we are studying the Bible, a book that has come from the very mouth of God (God breathed).


John 8:30-33
As he spake these words, many believed (pisteuō) on him. 31 Then said Jesus TO THOSE JEWS which believed (pisteuō) on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

The Bible clearly tells us that there were Jews who "believed" on him. This therefore guaranteed their salvation, or did it?

John 8:37-44
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

What we can see from this passage is that even though there were many Jews which believed on Christ, that it was these same Jews who sought to kill him. Not only did they desire to kill Christ, but Christ revealed to them their true spiritual condition in verse 44.

Now wait a minute...... did not these Jews believe in Christ? The passage assures twice us that they did, and this is the same exact word “believe” used in Acts 16:31. These Jews did just that, they believed in Christ, yet there was no spiritual change in their lives as there was in others who we are told in the scriptures, also believed.

Acts 5:14
And believers (pisteuō) were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.

By now you should be noticing some inconsistencies with the word “believe”, some believed and were truly saved, and some believed and did not become saved. Already we can see that this word “believe” is not as plain a word as you may have been taught. Let’s take a look at another passage.

Acts 8:12-13
But when they believed (pisteuō) Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed (pisteuō) also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Here is another example of a group of people who we are told that believed along with another man named Simon, who we are also told that he likewise believed and was baptized. This brings to mind another verse which talks about salvation.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This man Simon did both of these things, yet we notice that there is a difference between his spiritual condition and those who also believed the preaching of Philip.

Acts 8:17-23
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Let’s recap, here we have a group of people who believed, and we also have a man named Simon who also believed. They both did the exact same thing, yet the group of people who believed, received the Holy Ghost, and Simon did not. As a matter of fact, we are told of the spiritual condition of Simon after he believed and was baptized, and it was that he was still in the bond of iniquity, meaning, he was still in his sins and not truly saved. Simon’s decision to believe had no effect on his spiritual condition.

So, we have gone over enough biblical evidence for now, to demonstrate that to believe is a much more complicated word to understand than most (probably all) churches teach it to be. But when we let the Bible define words for us, we get an entirely different story than that which is commonly taught.

So, to answer our previous questions:

#1. If someone decides to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, as Acts 16:31 states, does that mean that they are truly saved? The answer is, absolutely not.
#2. Is it possible that, to believe is a much more complicated word to understand that many think it is? The answer is, absolutely.

Most people have fallen for a do-it-yourself gospel in which you have been taught that anyone and everyone can decide, of their own will, to believe on Jesus Christ and so be saved. But as we saw, something in the puzzle of this doctrine is missing, because as the scriptures show, not everyone who believes, is truly saved.

Umm, I think, the question of the OP is simple that not all who believe will be saved as in the case of the Devil. Such belief is not centered on Christ and his gospel. However, I've noticed plain scriptures about such belief in Christ has been forced out as put in here for an example. Let's see some of them.

The scripture in Acts 16:31 as an example does not even say “someone decides to believe” rather the Philippian Jailor asked how can he be saved or “what must he do” to be saved? And the scripture says he is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Did The jailer believe in Christ? Yes, he did and he was saved. Because such "belief in Christ" is needed in order to be saved and as not "Believe" only as the title of the OP says.

Because the OP would like to discredit what the plain scripture says, then we will consider the other examples and see them in the proper context.

In John 8, we have different audiences when Christ taught them in the temple as all people gathered. Let’s identify them.

1) The believing Jews vv. 30-31 where Jesus said to them if they would continue in his word, he would call them his disciples or follower and not just a believer yet, the moment one believes according to Jesus' lips will have the life given by him. (John 20:31) So we have the believing Jews who are saved the moment they believed as Christ said.

2) The unbelieving Jews. These include non-believing Jews, the scribes, and the Pharisees (v3, 13). These are they who don’t understand him or know him and they also that seek to kill him (vv 19, 27, 40)

As we identify them, it is crystal clear that the audience either belongs to No. 1 or No. 2 so not all of them believe as you are saying. Simply, not all of them that heard Christ believed.

Here is what you misunderstood about the passaged you try to connect.

First, Mark 16:16 teaches no baptismal regeneration. Baptism is the byproduct of such belief in Christ. Properly, baptism has no part in the gospel but this is off the topic, so we will concentrate on the “believing” and I’ll go to Acts 8 in the case of Simon the Sorcerer and why I believe he is not saved. Such belief of Simon is not focused on Christ. It is centered in the signs and wonders which were given to the Apostles solely. Anyone that does not believe in Christ in the Bible is flat wrong. The title of OP on the other hand simply says belief only cannot save. I believe as we go to the scripture of such belief of course does not focus on Christ and his gospel. So my answer is YES if not on Christ and his gospel. The scripture, however, is clear that “ALL” who believes in Christ becomes the child of God John1:12; John 20:31 etc.) and there are no complications. You only needed to rightly divide his words.