NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED

PennEd · Jan 4, 2022

Don’t put words in my mouth.

It’s silly to even suggest a Christian shouldn’t do good works. Not the issue even slightly here.

The issue is the relationship between works and Salvation. And in that regard, there is ONLY one work, out of God’s own Mouth, that is necessary for Salvation.

John 6:28-29
New King James Version

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

PennEd said:

The works of man never produced salvation neither kept someone saved. But works were indeed required for salvation. Huh? That's right. The Bible teaches us that both statements are true.

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Here, God clarifies whose work did not save. It was man's own works who sought justification by keeping any commandment of God (including, "believe").

But faith without works never saved anyone either.

James 2:14 (KJV)
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (The answer is no)

James 2:17 (KJV)
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Then we're given examples of people who were justified (made just before God, or, saved) BY WORKS.

James 2:24 (KJV)
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham and Rahab, the Bible says, were justified by works. And still we scratch our heads. Until we learn that God is leaving out a very important word here, as he often ddoes. They were not justified by their own works, but by Christ's works.

James 2:24 (KJV) 24 Ye see then how that by (Christ's) works a man is justified, and not by (Christ's) faith only.

The one who exercises the faith, must of necessity be the one who exercises the work in order to make that faith of any effect. That is why the scriptures declare that we are saved by the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:9 (KJV)
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law (by man'sown works, in obeying any commandment, like "believe"), but that (righteousness) which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (By Christ's faith).

SophieT · Jan 4, 2022

Rhomphaeam said:

well I am not a Calvinist nor looking to become one

depending on when one is, or is not a Calvinist, their perception on the occurrences in the video are seen differently...or perhaps understood differently would be clearer

I am also neither Pentecostal or Charismatic

however, I am baptized in or with the Holy Spirit and understand what happened that night because I am

I used to lean towards Calvinism (not the hard core screaming in your face kind which have appeared from time to time in this forum), but believing God had decided I would be saved, I now understand that God wants everyone saved (many scripture to indicate that) but certainly not as a universalist, not all are saved.

I will add it can be somewhat difficult in a forum to really understand another as all the nuances of facial expression, gestures, etc, are not available.

I don't write about my experiences here, but I will state that I have lived through quite a bit...good and bad...when it comes to various denoms and while I prefer a church that believes in the gifts, I would just as soon not attend one if the alternative is going to one that believes every manifestation must be of God because it occurs in a church or in a body of believers

I will add that we are very limited in our understanding if we reject the Holy Spirit and well on the road to deception...but sadly works the the way if we just accept everything and test nothing...which happens in far too many places

then we have the discernment junkies who think every 2nd person is demonized or 'has something wrong with them'

I am conservative in my approach to all of it

SophieT · Jan 4, 2022

EddieRamos said:

oh brother.

How was Abraham approved by God? 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4

does that mean he worked? (not really asking.)

so we will just throw out all the scripture with regards to saving faith, belief leading to action or anything similar

thanks. good to know

you cannot create a one sided doctrine and say predestined means we really had no choice when there are clearly...CLEARLY...so many verses that speak to choice or our will

I believe God knows who will accept Christ. I do not believe He created the rest of humanity to burn....whosoever will surely means exactly that

SophieT · Jan 4, 2022

EddieRamos said:

right. now from my perspective that also rings true

SophieT · Jan 4, 2022

EddieRamos said:

I have altered my understanding many times over the years, but not my faith in Christ

I don't think you understand what faith is frankly

I don't have time right now to play Q & A with you, perhaps, not promising, later

thanks

just this for now tho. off the top of my head...or maybe in my heart:

without faith it is impossible to please God and the one who comes to Him must believe or he will receive nothing from God

like I said, not a direct quote....

SophieT · Jan 4, 2022

Blik said:

Blik Blik Blik

no one said that.....EVER.....to the best of my knowledge, in this forum

I know your favorite subject is the commandments, but who was ever saved by keeping them?

many people do not know Christ and they do all kinds of 'good works'...does that save them?

besides sin, the flesh can make a pretty impressive statement with all of its busyness

God has appointed us to do good works. but without faith it is impossible to please Him and that comes before any work or works

you might help yourself if you made an attempt to stop adding to what people say

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

I don't know what Puritans are, but I assume you were just making a suggestion to leave.

Let's take a look in the scriptures to see what is teaches about repentance and where it comes from. So, here in the Jonah account, we are taught that repentance done by men, is indeed defined by the Word of God as a work.

Jonah 3:10 (KJV)
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Before continuing, the account of Jonah is very interesting, in that it teaches us that Nineveh wasn't just an ordinary sinful city, but God sent Jonah there to preach the Word of God, which is the only prerequisite for God to save someone (Rom 10:17).

God intended to save this particular city, which is why he specified that Jonah go there. And we're told that Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days journey, but the word "exceeding" is concealing a much greater truth. This is the word "God".

Now we can understand why God insisted that Jonah go there and preach the word of God.

Jonah 3:3 (KJV)
So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was [to God] a great city of three days' journey.

Ok, back to what repentance is (whichbwe know is a work) and where it comes from.

Psalms 80:7 (KJV)
7 Turn us again, O God of hosts,
and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Psalms 85:4-7
Turn us, O God of our salvation,
and cause thine anger toward us to cease.
Wilt thou be angry with us for ever?
wilt thou draw out thine anger to all generations?
Wilt thou not revive us again:
that thy people may rejoice in thee?
Shew us thy mercy, O LORD,
and grant us thy salvation.

These verses are God's way of teaching us that true repentance and salvation go hand in hand. When God regenerated a spiritually dead individual, he also granted them repentance. This then becomes evident in our outward response to the hearing of the Word of God, like with Nineveh.

In other words, their outward response of humility and brokenness, was due to the salvation that had taken place upon their hearing the Word of God.

Regeneration is not something we feel and wake up on day saying, "I feel like I was just regenerated ", but rather, it's a process of understanding that God has indeed saved us, and not trusting that we did something to become saved. God was always the one who granted true repentance.

2 Timothy 2:25 (KJV)
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure (perhaps, maybe) will give (will grant) them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

The preaching of the true gospel was always with the understanding that God was sovereign over when he saved and who he saved, as taught by the scriptures.

PennEd · Jan 4, 2022

EddieRamos said:

A flat out false, and dangerous Gospel.

Nehemiah6 · Jan 4, 2022

EddieRamos said:

The preaching of the Gospel was always about the grace of God. Not the sovereignty of God. That is why it is called "the Gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24). It is Calvinists who have actually perverted the Gospel, as your post shows.

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

fredoheaven said:

Another misconception in the book James pertaining to justification by faith.

Saving faith does not need or require the works of man so that man might be saved. What James is saying is the historical, mental assent or mere "profession of faith" that cannot save. As per context, James is telling us of a faith that does not work is like having the faith of the Devil which is actually a dead faith. Contrary to the popular belief of those works salvationists that justification by faith of James is against the justification of faith by Paul. However, the two options never contradict each other. as Paul viewed such justification by faith under God's perspective, whereas, James is viewed under man's perspective. Thus the context is full of what man can do to show his belief. James says the ff:
v.14 "if a man may say" (man's viewpoint)
v.15 If a brother or sister (man's viewpoint)
v.16 "..needful of the body" (man's viewpoint)
v. 20 "vain man" etc.
Btw, if you are looking for a passage/s that says "profession of faith" then you are on the right spot which you just posted. James 2:14, 16, 18 speaks of "...though a man may say" " one of you say" " a man may say..." and exactly these were not saving faith in Christ.

Please read my post #162 where I addressed this.

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

PennEd said:

Well, sure if you only quote me partially, then I completely agree.

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

Yes, of course the grace of God as well as the Mercy of God, as well as the love of God, as well as the will of God, as well as the Sovereignty of God. I wasn't trying to exclude any of the above by not naming them. But because we're trying to discuss how one came to true repentance/salvation, the scriptures as a whole teach us that it was due the sovereignty of God. By God's grace, through the faith of Christ, demonstrated by his love and applied by his mercy. But all was the work of the will of God.

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

PennEd · Jan 4, 2022

EddieRamos said:

Doesn't matter if I quote every word you've ever said.

The SECOND you alter THE Gospel unto Salvation PAUL says you are accursed!

Only One Gospel
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

And what exactly is One True Gospel?

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have [b]fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

fredoheaven said:

The scriptures are not Paul's words, nor the Phillipian jailers. These are God's words recorded exactly how he authored it by using every single word he chose to use in his text. It's all God breathed.

So, if God uses the word "do" in conjuction to the answer given, then we are not to dismiss what God is trying to teach us. By doing that and then try to apply the literal historical grammatical method of interpretation, we think we can obtain truth by placing ourselves in their shoes. Where in the scriptures did you learn that that was the way to arrive at correct doctrine?

This is a spiritual book and must be approached as such. What did God mean by what was "plainly" spoken? Paul's reply (which was inspired by God) was to believe in Jesus Christ, when asked what was to be done (which, as I mentioned relates to works).

This agrees with the inescapable fact that to believe in Jesus Christ, is a commandment. Therefore, it matters not whether all you see here is that Paul didn’t command the jailer to believe. This is not the word of Paul, it's the word of God. And God's word declares that to believe in Jesus Christ is a commandment indeed (1 Jn 3:23). The same as "love your neighbor", or as "don't steal", or "don't lie", etc.

And keeping any commandment is a work of righteousness. And no one was ever saved by their own work of righteousness. This all agrees with the scriptures, which are the scripture's way of showing us that we have arrived at a correct doctrine.

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

fredoheaven said:

How can this be out of context is salvation is the context of the whole Bible? This person, like the jailer we were speaking about, asked how to obtain eternal life. Or what must I do to be saved? It's the same exact context. The only problem is that if you acknowledge it, then you would see that works are being promoted in order to be saved. But that's not what this or the jailers account are teaching. But you have to look beyond the plain words being spoken.

Remember, Jesus, the word of God did not speak without parables. It's only when we have enough biblical evidence to determine that something being said is "plain" scripture that we can declare it as such. Otherwise, we must never forget that the word of God speaks in parables which conceal truth.

This account is dealing with what God requires if someone wants to do something to obtain eternal life. In other words, if someone wants to obtain eternal life by doing something, then God requires them to keep the whole law perfectly. This of course is impossible, and it condemns us if we dare to even think we can.

The point here is that there's nothing I could do to become saved. But there are things that are not considered a work. These are hoping and waiting for God's salvation.

Lamentations 3:26 (KJV)
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

fredoheaven said:

But who was Jesus specifically conversing with from verse 30 - 47? It was to a specific people, not to two groups. It doesn'tmatter if the temple was chock block full of people. He was specifically speaking to the ones who believed on him. And as I showed in my previous post, each subsequent reply was a direct result of the previous statement or question. Please look at this and show me where Jesus changes his focus onto another audience within these verses.

EddieRamos · Jan 4, 2022

fredoheaven said:

Exactly. This man was not saved after he believed and was baptized. And who did he believe in? The preaching of Jesus Christ.

Acts 8:12-13 (KJV)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed ALSO: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

If anyone is going to conclude that Simon believedin Jesus Christ because of the miracles he saw, then we would have to conclude the same of the others.

Acts 8:6 (KJV)
And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

But according to the text, when the people believed the preaching of Jesus Christ and were baptized, we read that Simon also (or, likewise (Strong’s#2532)) believed.

But for Simon, this was to no avail because , as you correctly alluded to, he did not have the right heart within him. He did not have a perfect heart. This is how we believe with the heart and it be pleasing unto God, because upon receiving our new heart (called regeneration) every commandment/law that we keep is a good work.

It's the condition of the heart that God first had to change in order to enact the correct response to all of God's commandments. Including the commandment to "believe".

arthurfleminger · Jan 4, 2022

I believe that the Bible, Old and New Testament, is the inerrant and truth of God's word. But how can it be used if we all read it and come up with different meanings? What good does the Bible do for us since we can't agree to it's meaning. So many posts on this thread and on this Christianchat board, and no one agrees with each other as to how to interpret the Scripture. Instead, each of us has their own viewpoint and posts it along with a number of Scripture passages to support their viewpoint. It seems that each of us has appointed ourselves as the authority on Scripture. So, what good is Scripture if we all disagree as to it's meaning?

SophieT · Jan 4, 2022

EddieRamos said:

seriously?

these verses are not describing faith for salvation

these verses directly address AFTER a person has come to faith

BIG difference

forget works. how about a change in character? how about fruit of the Spirit? THOSE are actually evident in a person who has committed to follow Christ

as I said to someone else already in this thread, anyone can do works. saved or unsaved.

NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED

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