not of works, but created in Christ unto good works
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I understand your concern, but never give up on discussing the scriptures for therein is the most comforting doctrine that Jesus taught. If you fully understand his doctrine, and obey it, you will never experience fear, most especially in your last days on this earth. Ecc 7:1, A good name is better than precious ointment, and the day of death than the day of one's death.
My point is, if it doesn't involve faith, it doesn't please God, and if He is not pleased, then does it still constitute a good work?
Is a good work the same as doing a good thing or deed?
I had someone offer to do a good deed for me, only to find out after he started this work, his motive was crooked.
He was a deceptively super nice guy, and very helpful, always wanting to give something and do things for me , as well as others, but what a wicked subtle snake he was.
He was not a believer in Christ, but would put most Christians to shame with his many gestures of kindness. Or so it appeared.
This guy not only gave to the poor, but he would help them as well, even by allowing one homeless guy to stay in his home while he was away working.
If you borrow money from a bank, did they do a good work by lending you money?
You are now in debt to them, and indebted to the one who helps you.
This guy, as I said, gave to the poor. Was it a good work, just because he gave to the poor, or is there more to it than that?
I believe, even eating or drinking in faith, is a good work.
You are not helping anyone by doing so, but you are still glorifying God and forcing His hand to move on said food and drink.
Again, I believe, anything done in our own strengths and/or abilities, without God's intervention, or outside of faith, no matter how small it may seem, is NOT a good work, biblically speaking, but just a kind gesture, good thing, nice..., and the like.
I say again, if God is not pleased, and we all know the only way to please God is through faith, how can anything we do outside of faith, be seen as a good work in God's eyes, and therefore in our eyes?
If doubt is seen as being evil in God's eyes, should we see it any differently?
I would say, any giving must be done in faith, at the very least, for it to be considered a good work. For God is the one who determines what is good and what is not, and that should be our authority for the same.
Whether we give or not give, everything we do should be done in faith and love, for faith works by love, and whatever we do will be considered a good work. For it is not so much a matter of the work done, as it is the position of the heart or heart attitude.
Is a good work the same as doing a good thing or deed?
I had someone offer to do a good deed for me, only to find out after he started this work, his motive was crooked.
He was a deceptively super nice guy, and very helpful, always wanting to give something and do things for me , as well as others, but what a wicked subtle snake he was.
He was not a believer in Christ, but would put most Christians to shame with his many gestures of kindness. Or so it appeared.
This guy not only gave to the poor, but he would help them as well, even by allowing one homeless guy to stay in his home while he was away working.
If you borrow money from a bank, did they do a good work by lending you money?
You are now in debt to them, and indebted to the one who helps you.
This guy, as I said, gave to the poor. Was it a good work, just because he gave to the poor, or is there more to it than that?
I believe, even eating or drinking in faith, is a good work.
You are not helping anyone by doing so, but you are still glorifying God and forcing His hand to move on said food and drink.
Again, I believe, anything done in our own strengths and/or abilities, without God's intervention, or outside of faith, no matter how small it may seem, is NOT a good work, biblically speaking, but just a kind gesture, good thing, nice..., and the like.
I say again, if God is not pleased, and we all know the only way to please God is through faith, how can anything we do outside of faith, be seen as a good work in God's eyes, and therefore in our eyes?
If doubt is seen as being evil in God's eyes, should we see it any differently?
I would say, any giving must be done in faith, at the very least, for it to be considered a good work. For God is the one who determines what is good and what is not, and that should be our authority for the same.
Whether we give or not give, everything we do should be done in faith and love, for faith works by love, and whatever we do will be considered a good work. For it is not so much a matter of the work done, as it is the position of the heart or heart attitude.
True
GOd Is a SPIRIT and those who worship HIM MUST worship HIM IN spirit and In TRUTH and the Spirit wants All control and the flesh wants All control.
Galatians 5:15-17
King James Version
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But can a person do good works that are good to another person.
According to the Bible the works of the flesh are
Galatians 5:19-20
King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
No, but He (God) CHOOSES to do it that way. What point exactly are you trying to make? That man can keep himself without Gods grace? Is that what you are saying. Or are you saying that God does not use secondary causes to fulfill His purpose. Because one is hyper Arminian and the other is hyper Calvinism
If I am wrong on both counts, I apologize in advance. I am not as careless about misrepresenting people as some on these boards, so I want to understand you accurately
Are you saying
A. A Christian can preserve himself without Gods help
B. God does not use secondary means to accomplish His Will
C. Both
D. Neither- something else
Pick a, b, c, or d so I can understand you better
If I am wrong on both counts, I apologize in advance. I am not as careless about misrepresenting people as some on these boards, so I want to understand you accurately
Are you saying
A. A Christian can preserve himself without Gods help
B. God does not use secondary means to accomplish His Will
C. Both
D. Neither- something else
Pick a, b, c, or d so I can understand you better
Unsaved people can do good things, but cannot please God, because the Law of works requires perfection. Therefore we are saved by grace through faith, justified, and or works are now pleasing to God, being sanctified by Jesus, our works become an offering pleasing to God. Just as Abel’s faith made his offering pleasing to God.
Does that about cover it?
Does that about cover it?
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How could you get the first part so right and the second so wrong?
Could it be because you don't understand what faith is or how it works?
James asks a very simple question in 2:14, with an obvious answer.
That being, NO.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James is asking if the kind of faith without corresponding works to said faith, can save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, to (make) or be (made) whole.?
If he is speaking about a person who is not saved, then he is saying a person has to do a corresponding work with his faith to be saved, and if he is speaking about a person who is saved, then he is saying that person CANNOT save, protect, deliver, heal, preserve, or make himself well or whole, WITHOUT CORRESPONDING WORKS TO SAID FAITH.
Either way, a corresponding work MUST accompany the faith for it to work.
If a person is not save, then they MUST believe, personally receive, and most importantly, confess with their mouth, His lordship over their life.
Without the act or "work" of confessing, verbally with their mouth, Jesus as their lord and savior, no salvation will take place.
If a person "only believed", but fail to act on said belief, again, their faith will be dead or powerless, and God will not be obligated to fulfill His promise to save said person.
The work James is speaking of is a corresponding work to that which they are believing for or is.
(AUV) But the person who has doubts about eating [a certain food] is self-condemned if he [goes ahead and] eats it, because his action is not based on faith [i.e., if he lacks the conviction that he is doing what is right]. And whatever is not done with such a conviction is a sin.
(CEV) But if you do have doubts about what you eat, you are going against your beliefs. And you know that is wrong, because anything you do against your beliefs is sin.
If one eats their food in faith, believing no harm will come to their body when they act on that belief and eat it, then everything that is bad for the body in the food, will be made good, AS THEY EAT it, and not before.
If they believe the food is made good for them after they pray, but don't eat said food, then God will NOT do anything to that food, because NO ACTION OR WORK OF FAITH was put to said belief.
Simply believing or believing alone, will NOT produce anything.
Like, zero fruit.
Could it be because you don't understand what faith is or how it works?
James asks a very simple question in 2:14, with an obvious answer.
That being, NO.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James is asking if the kind of faith without corresponding works to said faith, can save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, to (make) or be (made) whole.?
If he is speaking about a person who is not saved, then he is saying a person has to do a corresponding work with his faith to be saved, and if he is speaking about a person who is saved, then he is saying that person CANNOT save, protect, deliver, heal, preserve, or make himself well or whole, WITHOUT CORRESPONDING WORKS TO SAID FAITH.
Either way, a corresponding work MUST accompany the faith for it to work.
If a person is not save, then they MUST believe, personally receive, and most importantly, confess with their mouth, His lordship over their life.
Without the act or "work" of confessing, verbally with their mouth, Jesus as their lord and savior, no salvation will take place.
If a person "only believed", but fail to act on said belief, again, their faith will be dead or powerless, and God will not be obligated to fulfill His promise to save said person.
The work James is speaking of is a corresponding work to that which they are believing for or is.
(AUV) But the person who has doubts about eating [a certain food] is self-condemned if he [goes ahead and] eats it, because his action is not based on faith [i.e., if he lacks the conviction that he is doing what is right]. And whatever is not done with such a conviction is a sin.
(CEV) But if you do have doubts about what you eat, you are going against your beliefs. And you know that is wrong, because anything you do against your beliefs is sin.
If one eats their food in faith, believing no harm will come to their body when they act on that belief and eat it, then everything that is bad for the body in the food, will be made good, AS THEY EAT it, and not before.
If they believe the food is made good for them after they pray, but don't eat said food, then God will NOT do anything to that food, because NO ACTION OR WORK OF FAITH was put to said belief.
Simply believing or believing alone, will NOT produce anything.
Like, zero fruit.
Most Christians believe any kind gesture or act of kindness is considered a "good work" in the eyes of God.
I just wanted to make a distinction between what many see something they do, as a good work and what I believe, God says is a good work.
And like I said earlier, just eating your food in faith, without helping anyone else, is a good work.
Why?
Because God moved on the scene, like in the example below.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
You can't make you food healthy if there is something bad in it.
That is where God's strength is made perfect in your weakness or inability to make it clean or healthy for your body.
My understanding of God's definition of a good work is when Jesus mentioned good works.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
All the good works Jesus did, was with the power of God the Father moving in the situation.
That is why I believe any good work must be done in faith and the power of God must be involved for it to be considered a good work.
I just wanted to make a distinction between what many see something they do, as a good work and what I believe, God says is a good work.
And like I said earlier, just eating your food in faith, without helping anyone else, is a good work.
Why?
Because God moved on the scene, like in the example below.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
You can't make you food healthy if there is something bad in it.
That is where God's strength is made perfect in your weakness or inability to make it clean or healthy for your body.
My understanding of God's definition of a good work is when Jesus mentioned good works.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
All the good works Jesus did, was with the power of God the Father moving in the situation.
That is why I believe any good work must be done in faith and the power of God must be involved for it to be considered a good work.
Yes, I believe I understood you correctly, and that is why I was trying to correct you.
I believe your understanding of what faith is, is incorrect.
You are speaking in general terms, where I'm am speaking of specific works.
Yours has no power of God in operation, but speak in terms of general good works that will follow the person after they receive Christ as their lord and savior.
They will for example, start reading their bible, praying, going to church, and getting involved in church activities, and the like.
From what I see, and the way I understand it, the above statement is your understanding of what, good works following one's salvation, is.
If that is what you are saying, then I say you have it wrong.
Yes, a saved person generally does good things and becomes a good or better person after they receive Christ, but that is not what James is talking about concerning faith with works.
Where is there weakness in all that?
The heathen can and do do the same. Which is why I mentioned the deceitful guy.
All these things we can do without God's intervention.
God's power is not needed for us to do most of those things.
Yes, God causes a change within us, but that is not what faith is or how it works.
The way I understand it is, a work of faith is a good work, because God had to move or do the work, due to your inability to get it done.
Speaking words of faith over a situation or person, is a good work.
casting out an evil spirit, is a good work also.
We can't do that in our own strengths, abilities, or power.
As I said, each good work, is specific, for each and everything we have faith for.
For each event, that person had to believe and act on said belief, for God to cause that belief to manifest and produce a desired result.
It is done with intent and purpose with expectancy.
You have to do something in line with a specific belief or faith for it to be a good work.
I believe your understanding of what faith is, is incorrect.
You are speaking in general terms, where I'm am speaking of specific works.
Yours has no power of God in operation, but speak in terms of general good works that will follow the person after they receive Christ as their lord and savior.
They will for example, start reading their bible, praying, going to church, and getting involved in church activities, and the like.
From what I see, and the way I understand it, the above statement is your understanding of what, good works following one's salvation, is.
If that is what you are saying, then I say you have it wrong.
Yes, a saved person generally does good things and becomes a good or better person after they receive Christ, but that is not what James is talking about concerning faith with works.
Where is there weakness in all that?
The heathen can and do do the same. Which is why I mentioned the deceitful guy.
All these things we can do without God's intervention.
God's power is not needed for us to do most of those things.
Yes, God causes a change within us, but that is not what faith is or how it works.
The way I understand it is, a work of faith is a good work, because God had to move or do the work, due to your inability to get it done.
Speaking words of faith over a situation or person, is a good work.
casting out an evil spirit, is a good work also.
We can't do that in our own strengths, abilities, or power.
As I said, each good work, is specific, for each and everything we have faith for.
For each event, that person had to believe and act on said belief, for God to cause that belief to manifest and produce a desired result.
It is done with intent and purpose with expectancy.
You have to do something in line with a specific belief or faith for it to be a good work.