Obedience Required?

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, the obedience is a response to having been delivered. That is how we follow God. That's following His commands. But the obedience isn't the means by which eternal salvation is given. It's the reasonable response to having been saved. The saved person also will exhibit fruit from being saved. That's the natural result of having the Holy Spirit indwell their soul.

Salvation is believing Jesus is God, that He lived a sinless life, died on the cross and rose again. That by believing in Him we have sins forgiven and eternal life. That is it.

Works are our response after-- having believed earlier.

“Yes, the obedience is a response to having been delivered. That is how we follow God.”

yes amen we love him because he first loved us and to love God we have to live one another the way Christ taught us

you see Gods command isnt what Moses said it’s what Jesus said. So it’s not “ don’t commit the act of adultery “ it is “ cast away the lust and wandering mind fantasizing about adultery and you’ll never have any motivation to commit adultery “

Moses said this

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

( but Jesus says this )

but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one is a commandment to the flesh to abstain from sin , the other is a command to the spirit within to overcome sin at its root “nip it in the bud “ do to speak

what Jesus says sets us free from sins dominion ion over us because he’s informing us of the issue and where our fight really is

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23

the only reason anyone sins is because of that issue in mankind this issue

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the only reason we even consider doing evil because of that darn fruit. The gospel is about circumcising the evil in our mind and heart and filling us up with the gospel Gods true Will and word

when you say obey his commands it’s Christs word we need to hear and heed and walk after which are quite dofferent from Moses words as different as life and death

The reason Jesus can say this and it’s true is because Greg battle is within us that’s why we absolutely have to hear and believe the gospel where the battle is happening


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s to hear and believe Jesus that’s where we start hearing Gods commands

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so when we’re talking about works it is not the works of Moses law but the good fruit of the gospel we’re talking about

it’s simply Jesus teaching us to be good and decent people to others share his word and name share thre gospel but he’s teaching us to stop doing harm to anyone else and start doing good to others that’s l the actions that need to change how we treat other people who Christ also suffered and died for

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There were many the day of Pentecost who didn't respond. Do you think only 3000 were present? There are many in churches who don't respond. 2 people hear the same message. 1 responds and is gloriously saved. Another leaves as he came. Why?

yeah right and how many does it say we’re saved of all those present ? It’s those who responded right ?

“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:41‬ ‭

that’s exactly the point of ten thousand we’re there and heard and saw only three thousand responded and we’re added to the church

The others weren’t also included they were rejecting what the others were accepting that’s how Jesus said it would be those who accept his word are saved those who reject it are damned you made a great point

regardless of how many were there only the ones who responded to the word were saved

 

[Cameron143]

“Yes, the obedience is a response to having been delivered. That is how we follow God.”

yes amen we love him because he first loved us and to love God we have to live one another the way Christ taught us

you see Gods command isnt what Moses said it’s what Jesus said. So it’s not “ don’t commit the act of adultery “ it is “ cast away the lust and wandering mind fantasizing about adultery and you’ll never have any motivation to commit adultery “

Moses said this

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

( but Jesus says this )

but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one is a commandment to the flesh to abstain from sin , the other is a command to the spirit within to overcome sin at its root “nip it in the bud “ do to speak

what Jesus says sets us free from sins dominion ion over us because he’s informing us of the issue and where our fight really is

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23

the only reason anyone sins is because of that issue in mankind this issue

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the only reason we even consider doing evil because of that darn fruit. The gospel is about circumcising the evil in our mind and heart and filling us up with the gospel Gods true Will and word

when you say obey his commands it’s Christs word we need to hear and heed and walk after which are quite dofferent from Moses words as different as life and death

The reason Jesus can say this and it’s true is because Greg battle is within us that’s why we absolutely have to hear and believe the gospel where the battle is happening


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s to hear and believe Jesus that’s where we start hearing Gods commands

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so when we’re talking about works it is not the works of Moses law but the good fruit of the gospel we’re talking about

it’s simply Jesus teaching us to be good and decent people to others share his word and name share thre gospel but he’s teaching us to stop doing harm to anyone else and start doing good to others that’s l the actions that need to change how we treat other people who Christ also suffered and died for

I don't disagree with what you have said except that Jesus was teaching nothing new. He was merely telling them what the law had always entailed. But you have gone far beyond the original premise.

 

[Cameron143]

yeah right and how many does it say we’re saved of all those present ? It’s those who responded right ?

“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:41‬ ‭

that’s exactly the point of ten thousand we’re there and heard and saw only three thousand responded and we’re added to the church

The others weren’t also included they were rejecting what the others were accepting that’s how Jesus said it would be those who accept his word are saved those who reject it are damned you made a great point

regardless of how many were there only the ones who responded to the word were saved

My question was why did they respond and the others didn't?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't disagree with what you have said except that Jesus was teaching nothing new. He was merely telling them what the law had always entailed. But you have gone far beyond the original premise.

nothing new ?

“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:34-35‬ ‭

brother it’s a New Testament completely

“The law and the prophets were until John:( Old Testament )

since that time the kingdom of God is preached,( New Testament ) and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

Moses word the Old Testament

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

( Jesus word the new and contrary testsment )
but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

brother the word of God begins and ends with what Jesus said everything else in scriptire od guiding a believer to what Jesus said it was hidden in e old times behind this veil

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the word of Christ was hidden from the ot it was only foretold
He would come and speak Gods everlasting word but they never heard his word hey heard Moses word itch was a veil keeping it hidden intentionally until this day when all would be revealed and sent to all nations

The law and prophets were preached until John and hen the time had finally come for salvation by grace and truth

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-

from Moses you get the law from Christ you get the gospel the grace and truth of God without a veil hiding anything

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he is the beginning and end and his words are forever but man didn’t hear then until he said them they were hidden in the ot

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My question was why did they respond and the others didn't?

because they believed what they heard so they acted on that belief

the others heard it and rejected it and they didn’t act

simple the ones who believed and acted will Be saved those who heard and rejected and didn’t respond won’t be it’s the same with anything in the Bible faith is when you hear and believe which leads to the action

or In other words faith without works can’t save us , like Noah of he said I believe you lord but I’m not acting on that belief I have faith

Noah would have drowned with the world saying he believed but refusing to believe and act like he did

 

[Cameron143]

nothing new ?

“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:34-35‬ ‭

brother it’s a New Testament completely

“The law and the prophets were until John:( Old Testament )

since that time the kingdom of God is preached,( New Testament ) and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

Moses word the Old Testament

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

( Jesus word the new and contrary testsment )
but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

brother the word of God begins and ends with what Jesus said everything else in scriptire od guiding a believer to what Jesus said it was hidden in e old times behind this veil

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the word of Christ was hidden from the ot it was only foretold
He would come and speak Gods everlasting word but they never heard his word hey heard Moses word itch was a veil keeping it hidden intentionally until this day when all would be revealed and sent to all nations

The law and prophets were preached until John and hen the time had finally come for salvation by grace and truth

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-

from Moses you get the law from Christ you get the gospel the grace and truth of God without a veil hiding anything

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he is the beginning and end and his words are forever but man didn’t hear then until he said them they were hidden in the ot

Was loving your neighbor also new?

because they believed what they heard so they acted on that belief

the others heard it and rejected it and they didn’t act

simple the ones who believed and acted will Be saved those who heard and rejected and didn’t respond won’t be it’s the same with anything in the Bible faith is when you hear and believe which leads to the action

or In other words faith without works can’t save us , like Noah of he said I believe you lord but I’m not acting on that belief I have faith

Noah would have drowned with the world saying he believed but refusing to believe and act like he did

What caused them to believe? Did they prick their own hearts? Did they give themselves ears to hear? Was the faith to believe their own faith or a given faith?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Was loving your neighbor also new?

What caused them to believe? Did they prick their own hearts? Did they give themselves ears to hear? Was the faith to believe their own faith or a given faith?

it seems like your going in a circle brother listen this Is what you pointed to

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:36-42‬ ‭

that’s all I’m saying some people hear the truth and they believe it those people always will respond because they actually believe what they are hearing like that group they heard this

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

and they actually believed it was true so what’s thier resoknse going to be ? They are going to get baptized because they believe it’s for the remission of sins d the yell receive the Holy Spirit

that’s faith you have to hear something and then believe it if you do your response will Never ever be “ that’s a work not faith “ because faith is to hear what God said will save us d believe it not avoid it hats not ever going to save anyone

those who hear and respond ill
Be saved those who don’t will not be it couldn’t be simpler

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

you seem to now want to change the subject to the origin of faith but we’ve already gone though that it’s coming from hearing the word of god

I’m not really sure your point is faith a gift from God ? Sure it is some have faith others don’t that in no way changes our responsibility to act on faith as believers though

it’s really simple if we hear the gospel d believe we’re going to act on that like we do really believe what we’re hearing for instance if I heard this and believed it truly what would I do !?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

any human one at actually heard that and believed it’s true is going to do what? Is there even a doubt what gets so if they actually believed it ? Of course tv y would then start to study and learn his word because they. Eleven e promise in it

“hear my word and believe - you will have everlasting life “

instruction and result is how faith works only those that hear and believe are going to ever obey it that’s how faith works it always has just the same principle

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭

moses heard gods instruction and heard what e result would be if he did it so Moses did it by faith and the result came according to gods word

that’s faith thats how we’re saved we hear the gospel and actually let ourselves believe d yes we can let ourselves believe when we don’t at first if we hear the word of faith the word of Christ

 

[wattie]

You may want to seriously consider what the scripture actually says; obedience brings about the reality of being indwelt by the Holy Ghost. ",,,the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

The message initially presented at Pentecost conveys this truth: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:38-40


"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom. 8:9-11

At Pentecost this was the already converted disciples that received the Holy Spirit as a group 'in the midst'.

This is not an account of salvation.

When an entire group receives the Holy Spirit in the NT this is something other than receiving salvation.

It's a church being formed.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

At Pentecost this was the already converted disciples that received the Holy Spirit as a group 'in the midst'.

This is not an account of salvation.

When an entire group receives the Holy Spirit in the NT this is something other than receiving salvation.

It's a church being formed.

what are you basing any of these determinations upon just conjecture ?

 

[Wansvic]

How do you reconcile all that you have written with Ephesians 2:8-9?

Faith is the means by which we yield to God, obey His Word, and allow Him to perform His saving work in us.

 

[Cameron143]

it seems like your going in a circle brother listen this Is what you pointed to

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:36-42‬ ‭

that’s all I’m saying some people hear the truth and they believe it those people always will respond because they actually believe what they are hearing like that group they heard this

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

and they actually believed it was true so what’s thier resoknse going to be ? They are going to get baptized because they believe it’s for the remission of sins d the yell receive the Holy Spirit

that’s faith you have to hear something and then believe it if you do your response will Never ever be “ that’s a work not faith “ because faith is to hear what God said will save us d believe it not avoid it hats not ever going to save anyone

those who hear and respond ill
Be saved those who don’t will not be it couldn’t be simpler

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

you seem to now want to change the subject to the origin of faith but we’ve already gone though that it’s coming from hearing the word of god

I’m not really sure your point is faith a gift from God ? Sure it is some have faith others don’t that in no way changes our responsibility to act on faith as believers though

it’s really simple if we hear the gospel d believe we’re going to act on that like we do really believe what we’re hearing for instance if I heard this and believed it truly what would I do !?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

any human one at actually heard that and believed it’s true is going to do what? Is there even a doubt what gets so if they actually believed it ? Of course tv y would then start to study and learn his word because they. Eleven e promise in it

“hear my word and believe - you will have everlasting life “

instruction and result is how faith works only those that hear and believe are going to ever obey it that’s how faith works it always has just the same principle

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭

moses heard gods instruction and heard what e result would be if he did it so Moses did it by faith and the result came according to gods word

that’s faith thats how we’re saved we hear the gospel and actually let ourselves believe d yes we can let ourselves believe when we don’t at first if we hear the word of faith the word of Christ

I appreciate all the trouble you went to. I was trying to make a more indepth study of what actually happens in salvation that leads to obedience and not the result of obedience.
I always appreciate your answers.

 

[Wansvic]

It actually teaches that these things are done in response to what He has already done in you. That's what Ephesians 2 is all about.

Does the scripture state that God gave the Holy Ghost to those who obeyed?
"...the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:31-32)

 

[Cameron143]

Does the scripture state that God gave the Holy Ghost to those who obeyed?
"...the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:31-32)

Of course it does. I'm saying it happens previous to salvation. You are saying after.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I appreciate all the trouble you went to. I was trying to make a more indepth study of what actually happens in salvation that leads to obedience and not the result of obedience.
I always appreciate your answers.

Yep indeed I feel the same about you and your efforts here brother many benefits to knowing you in the is setting and considering your thoughts

I understand brother what your saying I honestly do and your right

it isn’t by our self that we are saved nothing we could have ever done could have atoned for our prior sins we were already in this group before Jesus came to be among man

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because that’s true of all man this also is true of Gods word over them

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭

it isn’t by our parents sins , our associates sins , but our own sins which we have done of our own Will that this is addressing. And because that’s true and so is this

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;

and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now we all need a solution and new beginning because that part led the earth and creation here to this part

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6, 17, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because of all that being true we need a new word to give us a new life a new beginning fresh and clean from that ending so we have this promise
first this happens through Christ and baptism for remission of sins under the old law of sin and death

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭

that means Gods word has now fulfilled “ all sinners must die for thier sins “ and he’s made a new way not according to the prior which he remitted through the death of sinful man by Christ do he could create a new people for himself not driven by lusts of the flesh but by his own living spirit dwelling in thier hearts by faith through hearing and believing the gospel spoken by the lord thy ye oir salvation

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we needed to be born again now from this death of baptism into Christs death for our sins to fulfill gods word of sin and death we needed a new and better word that is applied fully with mercy , patience , atonement , forgiveness ,

we needed tomlewrn tbat God loves us as his children dearly and deeply beloved , we needed to understand God rather than seeing him as not knowable

we needed to hear Gods view of us , his beloved children , those he is shouting “ I have forgiven your sins just come and accept the gospel I spoke when I was among you and you will be saved forever and live in my eternal kingdom as my children

as my son was among you , so you will be among me forever revelation 21

you are loved and appreciated brother I’m glad we both came here

 

[wattie]

what are you basing any of these determinations upon just conjecture ?

No. The disciples at Pentecost were with Jesus before hand, traveling with Him and believed in Jesus (aside from Judas). To say they were not converted before Pentecost ignores the real NT church status they had.

Actually.. they were empowered as a church at Pentecost.. not a church started. My mistake.

Mathew 16:18.. Jesus will be building His already started NT church with His disciples.

Matthew 18 Jesus describes the process of resolving sin disputes in a NT church.

Acts 2.. this NT church assembly is empowered and receives the Holy Spirit as a group.

Individual receiving the Holy Spirit? John 3:16, 5:24.. 3:36 etc..

Group receiving the Spirit as a new NT church? Through the book of Acts you see groups of already converted believers receiving the Holy Spirit.

Two different roles of the Holy Spirit... 'in the midst' of a NT church, and in the soul of an individual believer.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No. The disciples at Pentecost were with Jesus before hand, traveling with Him and believed in Jesus (aside from Judas). To say they were not converted before Pentecost ignores the real NT church status they had.

Actually.. they were empowered as a church at Pentecost.. not a church started. My mistake.

Mathew 16:18.. Jesus will be building His already started NT church with His disciples.

Matthew 18 Jesus describes the process of resolving sin disputes in a NT church.

Acts 2.. this NT church assembly is empowered and receives the Holy Spirit as a group.

Individual receiving the Holy Spirit? John 3:16, 5:24.. 3:36 etc..

Group receiving the Spirit as a new NT church? Through the book of Acts you see groups of already converted believers receiving the Holy Spirit.

Two different roles of the Holy Spirit... 'in the midst' of a NT church, and in the soul of an individual believer.

what about this group of gentiles who were converted the same way ?

“And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:39-40, 42-

not really sure what your saying brother no one can believe something until they hear it then they have a choice to believe it or count it nonsense. some will believe the gospel others won’t but you have to hear something before you can believe or disbelieve it

I’m not sure what you mean prior believers ? Those with Jesus were commissioned to preach the same gospel to everyone the same teachings and promises to everyone who believes. It didn’t change the audience was expanded from israel Only , to all the nations all the children of Abraham’s promise

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

.. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8-9, 16, 26-29‬ ‭

there’s one spirit and one kingdom and one flock and one shepherd the spirit doesn’t make a distinction in people what he said to them he told them to say to everyone afterwards see Matthew 28:18-20 ( go teach all nations to observe everything I taught you )

brother the gospel is the same the audience has now been expanded to anyone that believes from any nation because israel rejected it as a nation but a remnant believed and took it too the world the soirit does the same thing for all of us teaches us about repentance and remission of sins in Christs name

 

[Wansvic]

It actually teaches that these things are done in response to what He has already done in you. That's what Ephesians 2 is all about.

Notice what is stated in verses 41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine..." (Acts 2)

 

[Dirtman]

I think its an error to apply obedience to the lead. Its a gospel rather. Those who Love the Lord become obedient because the Holy Spirit working within them to regenerate them. Many time I think folk get the cart before the horse. Dont get some legalistic mind of, "what work is required of me now?". Rather loving the Lord causes one to pray and learn, in praying and learning the Holy Spirit changes you and you become more and more obedient.
I have this analogy that I like because I used to have horses and had to train them. It seemed the more time you spent with the horse, petting feeding brushing and playing with the horse the easier they are to train. When they love you they learn to obey quite willingly. The communication becomes easier and the work becomes fun and enjoyable for both. This is much the way we are with our Lord.

 

[Wansvic]

"Obedience Required"

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

The scripture you reference continues by expressing believing in Jesus Christ included acting in obedience to the command to be baptized:

"And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway." Acts 16:30-34