ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE DOCTRINE PROVEN!

[notuptome]

The thing to remember about sin is that, while it will not lead to a loss of salvation, it does serve as evidence to question your salvation, and even tho you are saved you will be held to account for your sin.

Tough spot to put yourself into. So now you teach that salvation cannot be lost? Does that include recanting of salvation?

No one ever said that sin would not come with consequences. Often times dear saints are carrying the scars of sin from prior to their salvation. Sin forgiven and fully atoned for yet in this life still a reminder of past transgressions.

Our fellow man will not forget nor fully forgive what we were before we were saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[tourist]

The Christian wipes the floor with the atheist in this video, the point was to show how a good dialogue works. You don't get this because you didn't watch the video.

He probably had better things to do with his precious time.

 

[RickyZ]

Tough spot to put yourself into. So now you teach that salvation cannot be lost? Does that include recanting of salvation?

No one ever said that sin would not come with consequences. Often times dear saints are carrying the scars of sin from prior to their salvation. Sin forgiven and fully atoned for yet in this life still a reminder of past transgressions.

Our fellow man will not forget nor fully forgive what we were before we were saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The law demands perfection..

Unless you live up to that standard. you will never earn salvation.

So if you question your salvation because you can;t keep Gods standard (because you still sin) then you question Gods grace, mercy and forgiveness.

You know, if people would learn how to read and comprehend, this Bible interpretation thing would come so much easier to you.

What I have said, and said all along, is that

1. You cannot sin (or work) your way out of salvation. That's never going to happen.
2. Belief/unbelief is not an act of works.
3. You can chose to stop believing and reject your faith, which will cost you your salvation.

And Rog, just 'cause I know you're going to ask it (again), why would someone choose to stop believing? Because they are seduced by worldly lies and demons. 1 Timothy 4 clearly says it's going to happen so don't even try to think that it's not.

 

[notuptome]

You know, if people would learn how to read and comprehend, this Bible interpretation thing would come so much easier to you.

What I have said, and said all along, is that

1. You cannot sin (or work) your way out of salvation. That's never going to happen.
2. Belief/unbelief is not an act of works.
3. You can chose to stop believing and reject your faith, which will cost you your salvation.

And Rog, just 'cause I know you're going to ask it (again), why would someone choose to stop believing? Because they are seduced by worldly lies and demons. 1 Timothy 4 clearly says it's going to happen so don't even try to think that it's not.

Problem with your speculation is that scripture contradicts you.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 Tim 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

This doesn't sound like a description of the children of God. Sounds to me like it's describing pretenders regarding the faith. Sorry for the likeness it has for Rome but they do come to mind reading this passage.

The parable of the sower really teaches that the only ones not saved were the first group where the birds carried away the word before it could live.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Problem with your speculation is that scripture contradicts you.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 Tim 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

This doesn't sound like a description of the children of God. Sounds to me like it's describing pretenders regarding the faith. Sorry for the likeness it has for Rome but they do come to mind reading this passage.

The parable of the sower really teaches that the only ones not saved were the first group where the birds carried away the word before it could live.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Like I said, Rog, comprehension. Some shall depart from the faith... you obviously don't comprehend this part (or you don't accept it because it doesn't fit in with your belief).

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is what they are doing when they depart from the faith.....


I looked up "depart from the faith" and it means to "fall away" from the faith ( the faith in Christ alone ).....and here is the greek word being used by Paul.."apostasy" is defined here by Paul...Paul shows exactly what this "departing from the faith is"

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Like I said, Rog, comprehension. Some shall depart from the faith... you obviously don't comprehend this part (or you don't accept it because it doesn't fit in with your belief).

 

[Cee]

They left us because they were never apart of us -John
Depart from Me I never knew you -Jesus
Examine yourself if you are in the faith -Paul
-Note it doesn't say: Still in the faith or not...

C.

 

[notuptome]

Like I said, Rog, comprehension. Some shall depart from the faith... you obviously don't comprehend this part (or you don't accept it because it doesn't fit in with your belief).

No I comprehend that these are not saved people. They are doubtless religious people but not born again Christians.

The Holy Spirit seals believers unto the day of redemption. They cannot depart from the faith in the context of losing salvation. Can some make a shipwreck of their faith and exchange a ministry for money or the acclaim of men? Ask Jimmy and Tammy Fay Bakker.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Here is what they are doing when they depart from the faith.....


I looked up "depart from the faith" and it means to "fall away" from the faith ( the faith in Christ alone ).....and here is the greek word being used by Paul.."apostasy" is defined here by Paul...Paul shows exactly what this "departing from the faith is"

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hoboy... what some people won't twist to make things fit their plan... not God's plan but their plan.

Can't you see what you are doing here? Using verses 1b thru 5 to negate verse 1a? You need to interpret 1b thru 5 in a way that confirms 1a. Scripture cannot negate scripture.

*

Verse 3 - are marriage and food the only lies told by the hypocrites of verse 2 that will draw believers away, or are they just used as examples of the many things of God the hypocrites can lie about?

*

What is going to cause believers to fall away? That's actually in the second half of verse 1 and verse 2 - paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars .

What lies and hypocrasies of verses 1b and 2 are they going to tell? That's in verses 3 to 5 - They are going to lie about the good things God has created for us, marriage and food being examples.

These verses are a progression... 1 explained by 2 explained by 3-5. They are not an algebraic expression of if 2-5, not 1. That's what you're attempting on these scriptures - not interpretation but algebra.

And again, works are irrelevant. It's all a matter of, and contingent on, belief/disbelief. So stop parroting the saved by works thing to me. I agree with you on at least that part - salvation/apostasy is not based upon the righteousness of works.

It is based upon the righteousness of belief.

Stop believing the Truths of God and believe in the lies of demons and hypocrites, and you WILL forfeit your salvation.

 

[Gr8grace]

Like I said, Rog, comprehension. Some shall depart from the faith... you obviously don't comprehend this part (or you don't accept it because it doesn't fit in with your belief).

I do believe that these verses speak about believers and saved individuals.

And we are witnessing people depart from THE faith. they are still nice and sweet, going to church, working for Jesus. but they have left THE faith.

The ironic thing? departing from the faith does not mean departing from salvation.......so the very ones who are preaching that departing from the faith is departing from salvation have departed from THE faith.

THE faith doesn't allow the belief of loss of salvation or eternal life. And Christ saves us the MOMENT we believe. If we wander off and depart from the faith................He remains faithful.

The devil is a sneaky,sneaky snake.

 

[royalscot]

salvation was never ours to give,

so why do you think, you can lose it,

believing in ,

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.30 I and the Father are one."John 10



is different, to religions answer to believing in.

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law,John 10 etc

 

[RickyZ]

No I comprehend that these are not saved people. They are doubtless religious people but not born again Christians.

The Holy Spirit seals believers unto the day of redemption. They cannot depart from the faith in the context of losing salvation. Can some make a shipwreck of their faith and exchange a ministry for money or the acclaim of men? Ask Jimmy and Tammy Fay Bakker.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

To present once again an old argument - how do you fall out of a tree you never climbed into?

What you refer to, the verse about some being with us but not, refers to them being with us here and now, but because of their apostasy, they never were with us on the other side. In this example, they climbed into the tree, and back out, here and now... but on the other side, they never partook of the tree.

Again, try to expand your 1 dimensional mind of the here and now into the Omni-dimensional realm of heaven.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Let's look again at the 1 Timothy scripture

The epistle begins with Paul writing to Timothy to stay at Ephesus to help people by exposing and guiding them away from false doctrine being taught by false teachers


1 Timothy 1:3-6 NKJV
No Other Doctrine

[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, [SUP]4 [/SUP]nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, [SUP]6 [/SUP]from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, [SUP]7 [/SUP]desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

Note here it says that they have strayed from sincere faith to idle talk, thus meaning they had sincere faith but were led away by these false teachings AND were teaching them to others. Secondly, Paul said to help these people is love by exposing the heresy and bringing them back to sound doctrine. As we know, there is a higher line of judgment for those called to be teachers by the Lord Jesus Christ. As they have responsibility over the flock they have been entrusted to, as the watchman dynamic shows us, they have a job to study to ensure what they give the sheep is indeed truth and not a fable.

Now let's look again at 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NKJV

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, [SUP]2 [/SUP]speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, [SUP]3 [/SUP]forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; [SUP]5 [/SUP]for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Once again, we have the concept of people in faith, departing from faith. You cannot depart from a faith you never had. If you never had the faith to begin with then you can't depart from it as one was never in that faith to begin with.

People may say that "Oh they were never saved to begin with," but this is a heart judgment we cannot make. If this chapter begins with Paul exhorting Timothy to bring people back who were in sincere faith but turned aside to idle talk, then what makes us suddenly believe that these people were never saved to begin with? As the ekklesia, we are called and exhorted to help a brother in sin or with doctrine that may not line up with the word of God in its entirety from OT to NT. As the ekklesia we are called to judge those who are inside the body of Christ and not outside, not by heart, but by doctrine, action, and belief. To give this truth is love as Paul writes in the first chapter of 1 Timothy.

So no, we do not comprehend that these are not saved people. They began with a sincere faith and have turned away to idle talk and fables. Thus Paul exhorted Timothy to instruct them and help them in their false teachings to bring them back. They may not depart from salvation, but they may depart from the Sanctification Process, our race of faith that Paul speaks about. Run so as to win the prize which is our Glorification. So I guess the real question is... can someone who is saved depart from faith and go to hell? I would argue that there are many examples in scripture that say it is possible. However, to say that one cannot depart from faith itself contradicts scripture.

 

[RickyZ]

I do believe that these verses speak about believers and saved individuals.


See, you got it right here...

Then the algebraic twisting begins...


And we are witnessing people depart from THE faith. they are still nice and sweet, going to church, working for Jesus. but they have left THE faith.

The ironic thing? departing from the faith does not mean departing from salvation.......so the very ones who are preaching that departing from the faith is departing from salvation have departed from THE faith.

THE faith doesn't allow the belief of loss of salvation or eternal life. And Christ saves us the MOMENT we believe. If we wander off and depart from the faith................He remains faithful.

The devil is a sneaky,sneaky snake.

He sure is... and he runs amok among the milk drinkers.

 

[sydlit]

Who does the keeping?
Do I keep me saved?
Or does Jesus keep me saved?

 

[RickyZ]

Let's look again at the 1 Timothy scripture

The epistle begins with Paul writing to Timothy to stay at Ephesus to help people by exposing and guiding them away from false doctrine being taught by false teachers


1 Timothy 1:3-6 NKJV
No Other Doctrine

[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, [SUP]4 [/SUP]nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, [SUP]6 [/SUP]from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, [SUP]7 [/SUP]desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

Note here it says that they have strayed from sincere faith to idle talk, thus meaning they had sincere faith but were led away by these false teachings AND were teaching them to others. Secondly, Paul said to help these people is love by exposing the heresy and bringing them back to sound doctrine. As we know, there is a higher line of judgment for those called to be teachers by the Lord Jesus Christ. As they have responsibility over the flock they have been entrusted to, as the watchman dynamic shows us, they have a job to study to ensure what they give the sheep is indeed truth and not a fable.

Now let's look again at 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NKJV

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, [SUP]2 [/SUP]speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, [SUP]3 [/SUP]forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; [SUP]5 [/SUP]for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Once again, we have the concept of people in faith, departing from faith. You cannot depart from a faith you never had. If you never had the faith to begin with then you can't depart from it as one was never in that faith to begin with.

People may say that "Oh they were never saved to begin with," but this is a heart judgment we cannot make. If this chapter begins with Paul exhorting Timothy to bring people back who were in sincere faith but turned aside to idle talk, then what makes us suddenly believe that these people were never saved to begin with? As the ekklesia, we are called and exhorted to help a brother in sin or with doctrine that may not line up with the word of God in its entirety from OT to NT. As the ekklesia we are called to judge those who are inside the body of Christ and not outside, not by heart, but by doctrine, action, and belief. To give this truth is love as Paul writes in the first chapter of 1 Timothy.

So no, we do not comprehend that these are not saved people. They began with a sincere faith and have turned away to idle talk and fables. Thus Paul exhorted Timothy to instruct them and help them in their false teachings to bring them back. They may not depart from salvation, but they may depart from the Sanctification Process, our race of faith that Paul speaks about. Run so as to win the prize which is our Glorification. So I guess the real question is... can someone who is saved depart from faith and go to hell? I would argue that there are many examples in scripture that say it is possible. However, to say that one cannot depart from faith itself contradicts scripture.

And that kinda addresses the sticking point here... you can be drawn away by false doctrines and still be saved - but you cannot be drawn away into disbelief and still be saved. One has to be able to separate doctrines of works and belief in Christ. If you disbelieve in Christ, you're out... whether you were saved once or not..

 

[royalscot]

Let's look again at the 1 Timothy scripture

The epistle begins with Paul writing to Timothy to stay at Ephesus to help people by exposing and guiding them away from false doctrine being taught by false teachers


1 Timothy 1:3-6 NKJV
No Other Doctrine

[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, [SUP]4 [/SUP]nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, [SUP]6 [/SUP]from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, [SUP]7 [/SUP]desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

Note here it says that they have strayed from sincere faith to idle talk, thus meaning they had sincere faith but were led away by these false teachings AND were teaching them to others. Secondly, Paul said to help these people is love by exposing the heresy and bringing them back to sound doctrine. As we know, there is a higher line of judgment for those called to be teachers by the Lord Jesus Christ. As they have responsibility over the flock they have been entrusted to, as the watchman dynamic shows us, they have a job to study to ensure what they give the sheep is indeed truth and not a fable.

Now let's look again at 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NKJV

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, [SUP]2 [/SUP]speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, [SUP]3 [/SUP]forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; [SUP]5 [/SUP]for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Once again, we have the concept of people in faith, departing from faith. You cannot depart from a faith you never had. If you never had the faith to begin with then you can't depart from it as one was never in that faith to begin with.

People may say that "Oh they were never saved to begin with," but this is a heart judgment we cannot make. If this chapter begins with Paul exhorting Timothy to bring people back who were in sincere faith but turned aside to idle talk, then what makes us suddenly believe that these people were never saved to begin with? As the ekklesia, we are called and exhorted to help a brother in sin or with doctrine that may not line up with the word of God in its entirety from OT to NT. As the ekklesia we are called to judge those who are inside the body of Christ and not outside, not by heart, but by doctrine, action, and belief. To give this truth is love as Paul writes in the first chapter of 1 Timothy.

So no, we do not comprehend that these are not saved people. They began with a sincere faith and have turned away to idle talk and fables. Thus Paul exhorted Timothy to instruct them and help them in their false teachings to bring them back. They may not depart from salvation, but they may depart from the Sanctification Process, our race of faith that Paul speaks about. Run so as to win the prize which is our Glorification. However, to say that one cannot depart from faith itself contradicts scripture.

They may not depart from salvation, but they may depart from the Sanctification Process, our race of faith that Paul speaks about.

then god will still save them,

paul was saying, he kept the faith.

6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3

believes in , is the difference ,between kids and adult, not everyone was called to be a leader.

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul tells you what departing from the faith is in verse 3-5... People use that "departing from the faith" to create their own doctrine....they add in here whatever they think will constitute someone departing from the faith..which could mean a 100 different things..depending on our religious upbringing or our "lens" that we view scripture.

I actually find it fascinating when people take a scripture out of context then build on top of that scripture..whatever they want.

I agree that marrying and not eating certain foods is not all that people get deceived into...but it's what the essence of this deception is and it is man-centered works....the D.I.Y. believers.

It always boils down to the D.I.Y. righteousness/holiness verses grace-based eternally secured in Him ..

Granted good works should follow those that know the grace of Christ..that is a "fruit" of salvation..not the "root".

So, if someone believes they can lose their salvation from what "they do or don't do"..then that is their belief.

The same goes for the one who believes in the integrity of Jesus and His words when He said.."No one can pluck you out of My hands "..I give you eternal life.

So, it's back to the same age old question....each to their own belief... I know one thing..what a great salvation we have in Jesus our Lord! He is awesome and mighty to save!

here is a good motto to stand on our beliefs..

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

 

[royalscot]

And that kinda addresses the sticking point here... you can be drawn away by false doctrines and still be saved - but you cannot be drawn away into disbelief and still be saved. One has to be able to separate doctrines of works and belief in Christ. If you disbelieve in Christ, you're out... whether you were saved once or not..

you have, yet to prove, you can lose salvation.

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.30 I and the Father are one."John 10

 

[Grace777x70]

I had never gave much thought about OSAS before I came on CC. I view it as the love and grace and mercy of God towards those He loves dearly. I see it as an understanding of the character and motive of God towards us. I see it as trusting in His word.

OSAS is not an invitation to sin. It is an invitation to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ who lives inside of you for all things in your life. The more you see the beauty and love that Jesus has for us - the more you fall in love with Him.