Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[Ralph-]

If we are trusting in the gift God gave us, then yes. He did all the work.

He did the giving of the ability to know the gospel is true.

We do the believing in response to him showing us the gospel is true. He does not do our believing for us. He gives the faith so we can do our believing, but he does not do our believing.


We can choose to stop believing. The Galatians and the Hebrew church, and perhaps the Corinthians too, are proof of this. Paul had to go into damage control mode and bring them back to belief/trust in Christ.

 

[Ralph-]

The lost may acknowledge that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ “happened” (mental assent belief) but they do not trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, as Christians (those who are saved) do.

That's what I'm saying.

For the saved person 'believing' implies trusting in what you know to be true, not just knowing something is true. If you look at posts from even months ago you will see I often write 'believing/trusting' when referring to believing so as to be clear of the definition and application of believing I'm using.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Probably.

Faith is simply being able to know the unseen gospel is really true.

I disagree, faith is more than just a simple thing, and it is more than just knowing, that would be belief, I can know something is true, and believe it to be so. That does not mean I actually have an assurance or trust that it is true

Faith is much deeper.

It's entirely possible to reject that knowledge and be lost. The 1 John 5 passage I posted shows us that. In fact, MOST people in human history will reject the faith that God gives to know that the gospel of Christ is for real.

1 John 2 says quite the opposite. People who lost faith and became against christ never had it to begin with.

The reason you think it can be lost, is because you think mental agreement is faith, it is not so.

What part of john 5 do you think agrees with you.? (I did nto see it so can not comment yet)

I will say however, I see in John 5 the difference between people who have real faith vs those who do not. And john ending with the basic tuth, it is the knowledge of the fact (assurance) that we have eternal life, which keeps is belieing in christ,. It would be lack of assurance that we really have eternal life, that it could be lost, that would cause us to stop believing in christ. Iem, a lack of faith, in other words, someone jusrt as you said, meantally agrees or knows the things is true, apart from actual assurance, which is defined as belief, not faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's what I'm saying.

For the saved person 'believing' implies trusting in what you know to be true, not just knowing something is true. If you look at posts from even months ago you will see I often write 'believing/trusting' when referring to believing so as to be clear of the definition and application of believing I'm using.

how can you say you know or trust something is true, if you think it can be lost? That is not trust, and defintalty is not assurance. There is no faith there.

 

[Ralph-]

This is very difficult but I think it is good exercise for us. But I need to re-read for a space here...

You care, and you're not hardened in a predetermined stance. Stay that way and you'll get this. It looks like you do get it, but you say you don't. I thinks you got this.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Both.

God gives the ability to know the unseen gospel is really true.

God gives assurance of the truth by making us able to see it.


And it is upon this assurance and revelation of the truth that we then decide to believe/trust, or decide to reject. Most will choose to not believe/trust in it and be saved.

Okay, so I'm having some problem with faith being called an ability. The verse you gave states that it is an assurance and a conviction. Is it possible to stick to those? Is there any reason you feel it must also be called an ability? We could go with the two things scripture calls it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have removed ralph from the ignore list one more time, Lets see if it can maintain that way.

 

[Depleted]

Amen, And there is biblical support what what happens when God does not change you into a tree. A dog returns to his vomit, because he is still a dog. He did not revert back to being a dog. It is what he was.

A person who is made into a tree will always be a tree. They may not produce as muchg fruit as other trees around them, but they are still a tree.

Love it sis, and thank you!!

And I'd rather be a tree than a vomit-eating dog.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By the way, I see places where I agree with both of you and places where I think I disagree with both of you. And then I see places where I am confused with both of you. So...yeah, haha!

Ask questions to make sure you understand both of us, the places you disagree may be misunderstandings..lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And I'd rather be a tree than a vomit-eating dog.

You and me both sister.

 

[Ralph-]

how can you say you know or trust something is true, if you think it can be lost? That is not trust, and defintalty is not assurance. There is no faith there.

Assurance is only assurance if you want to accept it and keep it. Just because you trust in something doesn't mean you'll always want to. The Galatians, the Hebrews church, and maybe the Corinthians prove this.


Notice the slight but important twist your putting on 'trust'. You say 'trust something is true'. But what trust means is you place your trust in what you know to be true, not just trust that it is true. Even an unbeliever can say they trust the gospel is true but not trust IN the gospel and be saved. I've known many unsaved people who trust the gospel is true but who have not placed their trust IN the gospel they trust is true.

 

[Depleted]

Laurie, Please understand the "we" in this is all of us!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have removed ralph from the ignore list one more time, Lets see if it can maintain that way.

There is absolutely no reason why it can't work unless one or the other of you gets disrespectful or angry.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]He did the giving of the ability to know the gospel is true.

We do the believing in response to him showing us the gospel is true. He does not do our believing for us. He gives the faith so we can do our believing, but he does not do our believing.


We can choose to stop believing. The Galatians and the Hebrew church, and perhaps the Corinthians too, are proof of this. Paul had to go into damage control mode and bring them back to belief/trust in Christ.

We can chose to stop believing

Only God can give us a reason to stop having faith (if our faiht is rooted in him)

Again, I think the difference is understanding the root of faith, and the root of belief.

If your root is in in something that is untrustworthy, it will not be rooted on solid ground, because the thing is not trustworhty.

If the root is trustworthy, then it is on solid ground and as a result if will it will never fail or be destroyed (cease to exist)

I am reminded of the two men who built their house on t he sand, one was washed away and desatroyed, and other stood firm and never could be destroyed’

what was the root of each house?

. Determine that, and you will determine why one was destroyed , and the other stood firm no matter how hard the opposition came to try to destrtoy it.

 

[Ralph-]

I have removed ralph from the ignore list one more time, Lets see if it can maintain that way.

What if I told you I was PeterJens under another screen name?

(I'm not. I'm playing with you.)

 

[mailmandan]

[/B][/COLOR]He did the giving of the ability to know the gospel is true.

We do the believing in response to him showing us the gospel is true. He does not do our believing for us. He gives the faith so we can do our believing, but he does not do our believing.

Yes, unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) unregenerate man would not come to Christ and believe all by himself. Faith is the response of a sinner, enlightened and convicted by the Holy Spirit who employs the message of the gospel. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

We can choose to stop believing. The Galatians and the Hebrew church, and perhaps the Corinthians too, are proof of this. Paul had to go into damage control mode and bring them back to belief/trust in Christ.

Christians (especially babes in Christ) may get tripped up by legalistic teachers, but completely stop believing and lose salvation? I’m not buying it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Assurance is only assurance if you want to accept it and keep it. Just because you trust in something doesn't mean you'll always want to. The Galatians, the Hebrews church, and maybe the Corinthians prove this.


Notice the slight but important twist your putting on 'trust'. You say 'trust something is true'. But what trust means is you place your trust in what you know to be true, not just trust that it is true. Even an unbeliever can say they trust the gospel is true but not trust IN the gospel and be saved. I've known many unsaved people who trust the gospel is true but who have not placed their trust IN the gospel they trust is true.

I can not agree, the defenitions of faith do not allow this to be so.

assurance is only assurance as long as the one we are placing our faith in is trustworthy.it will only stop if the thing we placed our assurance in stops being trustworhty.

If the thing we had assurance in never failed, or never stopped giving us a reason to have assurance in it, and we stoppped believing in it, We never had assurance in it to begin with. Our faith was knowledge only, not experiencial trust or faith.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What if I told you I was PeterJens under another screen name?

(I'm not. I'm playing with you.)

Lol. We know your not peter. We know who you are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is absolutely no reason why it can't work unless one or the other of you gets disrespectful or angry.

It will only fail if someone starts lying or slandering others. That is my requirment for being placed into ignore..

Disagreements are not gounds for ignore,. I have people I refuse to respond to or een give the time of day, but they ar enot in my ignore.

That is why he went there before. As long as he dcoes not conmtinue he will not go there again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What if I told you I was PeterJens under another screen name?

(I'm not. I'm playing with you.)

lol. Peter jens or LLH are not on my ignore list because I disagre with him