Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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John146

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A disciple carries the doctrine of their superior, in this case they were taught to teach eveything Yahshua had taught them:

Mat 28:19-20,28:19, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Your responding to verses after the fact. What did they preach back in chapter 10?
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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Our faith is not a prerequisite to salvation. If we should think that we have provided faith of ourselves, then we haven't.
Where is you Scripture proving that?

Mark 16:15-16, “And He said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature.“He who has believed and has been immersed, shall be saved, but he who has not believed shall be condemned.”

John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
 

rogerg

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Where is your Scripture showing people with no faith are saved?

John 5:14,Afterward יהושע found him in the Set-apart Place, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, so that no worse matter befalls you.”

John 8:10-11,And יהושע, straightening up and seeing no one but the woman, said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Did no one condemn you?”And she said, “No one, Master.” And יהושע said to her, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

You must really disagree with Yahshua's disciple, he even calls for repentance:

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

But Yahshua did teach them that and tell them to teach others

Luke 24:45-47,Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning at Yerushalayim.
Right off the top, these. Please actually read them. There are many others but for now these will do.

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 

rogerg

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Where is you Scripture proving that?

Mark 16:15-16, “And He said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature.“He who has believed and has been immersed, shall be saved, but he who has not believed shall be condemned.”

John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
Those verses don't state how faith is obtained, only that those without it are of the unsaved, which is why they wouldn't have faith.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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None of Yahshua's Disciples writings that are in the Bible are from before Matt 28.
In chapter 10, what did they go out and preach?

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What was Jesus preaching here in chapter 9? What exactly was the message?

35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

It is obvious that the preaching of the kingdom did not involve the d,b,r for our sins.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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Right off the top, these. Please actually read them. There are many others but for now these will do.

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
none of these say no faith is required.
 

rogerg

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none of these say no faith is required.
They do but you just can't see it - think about what they are saying. Here's another one. It clearly says that
belief was not a prerequisite but instead came after or as a result - their belief was result not cause.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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In chapter 10, what did they go out and preach?

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What was Jesus preaching here in chapter 9? What exactly was the message?

35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

It is obvious that the preaching of the kingdom did not involve the d,b,r for our sins.
You dont know it didnt contain that, it would make more sense that it didespecially when you are talking about people who know the Word, they have a background in the writings that speak of these things before thaey happened

Luke 16:16-17,The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of יהוה is preached, and every man presseth into it.And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Im pretty sure "the kingdom of יהוה is preached" includes how to get in...

In any case the last thing He told them was to preach

Mat 28:19-20,28:19, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

So trying to discard the Disciples of Yahshua because at one time they didnt fully understand it is crazy, Paul was killing and capturing believers when the disciples were walking with Jesus...
 

rogerg

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none of these say no faith is required.
Here, let quickly me explain one. Natural man (unsaved man) CANNOT receive the things of God; and being unsaved, CANNOT know them. So then, how can someone who CANNOT know the things of God have true faith? It is simply not within his power nor wisdom to be able to have true faith. What then would his faith be in? The very things he would have to have faith in, he can't know. So, he must first be born again with the Holy Spirit to know the things OF the Holy Spirit, one of which, is faith.


[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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They do but you just can't see it - think about what they are saying. Here's another one. It clearly says that
belief was not a prerequisite but instead came after or as a result - their belief was result not cause.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
That passage you posted proves my point, it says they "believed"

Hebrews 11:6,But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to יהוה must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

I cant believe Im even having a a discussion that faith is required, so crazy. Faith is not an optional, its a must when it comes to Yahshua.
 

rogerg

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That passage you posted proves my point, it says they "believed"

Hebrews 11:6,But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to יהוה must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

I cant believe Im even having a a discussion that faith is required, so crazy. Faith is not an optional, its a must when it comes to Yahshua.
No way. They believed only because they were ORDAINED by God to it - it was from/by God, not of themselves. Had they
not be so ordained, they could/would not have believed. Look at 1 Co 2:14. That is exactly what it is saying.
 
F

FollowingtheWay

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🧐 -
Those verses don't state how faith is obtained, only that those without it are of the unsaved, which is why they wouldn't have faith.
“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭9‬-‭10‬, ‭14‬-‭15‬, ‭17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

This is why evangelism is so important even today. The message has to be heard. The message has to reach the heart of the listener If the message gets in a seed of faith is planted in the heart before one even consciously makes a decision for Christ.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You dont know it didnt contain that, it would make more sense that it didespecially when you are talking about people who know the Word, they have a background in the writings that speak of these things before thaey happened

Luke 16:16-17,The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of יהוה is preached, and every man presseth into it.And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Im pretty sure "the kingdom of יהוה is preached" includes how to get in...

In any case the last thing He told them was to preach

Mat 28:19-20,28:19, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

So trying to discard the Disciples of Yahshua because at one time they didnt fully understand it is crazy, Paul was killing and capturing believers when the disciples were walking with Jesus...
You don't understand what preaching is. Preaching cannot cause anyone to become saved. It is to edify those whom God had
elected/chosen to salvation, till all come to a unity in the knowledge of Christ. Those who are elect are of "all the nations".
The "we" , the elect.

[Eph 4:12-13 KJV]
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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No way. They believed only because they were ORDAINED by God to it - it was from/by God, not of themselves. Had they
not be so ordained, they could/would not have believed. Look at 1 Co 2:14. That is exactly what it is saying.
You don't understand what preaching is. Preaching cannot cause anyone to become saved. It is to edify those whom God had
elected/chosen to salvation, till all come to a unity in the knowledge of Christ. Those who are elect are of "all the nations".
The "we" , the elect.

[Eph 4:12-13 KJV]
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Neither say anything about a no faith salvation. You need to slow down and read the entire word, particularly when there are a ton of passages saying faith is required.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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🧐 -


“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭9‬-‭10‬, ‭14‬-‭15‬, ‭17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

This is why evangelism is so important even today. The message has to be heard. The message has to reach the heart of the listener If the message gets in a seed of faith is planted in the heart before one even consciously makes a decision for Christ.
No. No one can believe in their heart until they are saved. Even you said they must be given a new heart. That new heart can
only come from/by salvation.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:11-12 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 

TheLearner

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My question was do you believe His disciples that He taught privately were unsaved Jews?


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3



Either they were disciples of Jesus Christ or they were unsaved Jews.


At this point, Judas had not fallen away.







JPT
They were not saved until
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Brighton, MI
My question was do you believe His disciples that He taught privately were unsaved Jews?


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3



Either they were disciples of Jesus Christ or they were unsaved Jews.


At this point, Judas had not fallen away.







JPT
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
 

rogerg

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Neither say anything about a no faith salvation. You need to slow down and read the entire word, particularly when there are a ton of passages saying faith is required.
Oh my! Do you understand this verse? Faith comes when with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only comes to those
when only they become born again. If faith comes from Holy Spirit, then that means they were saved before they had faith
You actually need to think about the verses I posted and what they are saying.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,