Once saved always saved?

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

3 verses that say we will "reap" eternal life etc after persistence/perseverance in faith and bearing fruit.

"Galatians 6:7-10 +
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Romans 2:6-7 +

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” [a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Tim 6:18-19 +

18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life [i.e. eternal life].

God Bless.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

So, you are interpreting "if we believe not" to mean "denying Jesus", yes? Believing not, is having a lack of faith. We can have a lack of faith, and still not deny Christ.

I see you have purposefully not commented on Eph 2:5. where we are quickened together with Christ. When we are born again, we are in Christ, and Christ is in us.

I resent you accusing me of lying, just because you cannot interpret scriptures correctly.

if we can deny God, we can fall into apostasy like mentioned going to happen in the Last Days.

what i resent most is telling others they can sin like the world, sell their souls, become witches, and they are still Saved because of a False Doctrine called OSAS!

 

[Magenta]

One can argue that faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains. So if you’re
not moving mountains then you’re not fully submitted, thus subsequently lost.

True: Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief

 

[wattie]

No it does not because they don't "abide in the vine" Yes, belief in Jesus, which is a continuing word, not once upon a time faith which then ceased. That would be like Jesus said in the parable of the sower those who believed FOR A WHILE and fell away. This is not the good ground.

It is still a very unlikely thing to happen.. but not impossible.

Every believer has free will. I could technically just go and murder someone tomorrow.

Of course Jesus would draw a believer from evil ways.. rebuke, admonishing etc... that us why it shouldnt really happen. BUT..

The believer who does rebel will miss blessings and rewards... Jesus won't leave them.. because that is denying His payment for their sin.

Thus is ultimate unconditional love in giving eternal life.

There will be fruit from being saved.. that's the natural outcome of being saved.. but not every believer WILL be faithful to the end. Doesn't mean the were never saved to begin with.

 

[FreeGrace2]

3 verses that say we will "reap" eternal life etc after persistence/perseverance in faith and bearing fruit.

The word "reap" clearly indicates reward for effort. The only way one will "reap a harvest" is to do the sweat work.

"Galatians 6:7-10 +
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Romans 2:6-7 +

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” [a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Tim 6:18-19 +

18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life [i.e. eternal life].

These are all verses about reward for effort. God does bless and reward work.

But salvation is a free gift. Cannot earn or deserve it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

what i resent most is telling others they can sin like the world, sell their souls, become witches, and they are still Saved because of a False Doctrine called OSAS!

Do you actually know people who smear this garbage around? Name them, if you actually do.

But I dare say that no believer I know who believes in eternal security would even think of preaching such Jezebellian docrine.

The Bible teaches that one is secure WHEN they believe in Christ, because John 5:24 says those who believe POSSESS (have) eternal life). You can't undo that verse. Go ahead and try.

And Jesus was real clear in John 10:28 when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Obviously, you do not believe what Jesus said, and have preferred to stew in your own false doctrine.

For those idiot believers who do preach what you have claimed they do, there is another "side" to the coin of eternal security.

The salvation IS secure, but side 2, or the flip side is God's discipline for His rebellious and/or unfaithful children.

Heb 12:11 says His discipline is PAINFUL. So anyone who is stupid enough to abuse the reality of eternal security will be in for a very rough ride. Acts 5:5, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Tim 1:19,20 all teach about God's discipline for believers who stray.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Because of free will , a believer could technically become an atheist ..and their salvation remains..

The salvation remains because the initial salvation had nothing to do with good behavior.. but belief in Jesus. John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36.. Romans 5:8.. Ephesians 2:8-9.

But they would be convicted, rebuked and admonished to stop unbelief by God. This is where the scenario of a believer turning to atheism becomes very unlikely.

what about the Baptist Preacher now confirmed Atheist and leading Bible Scholar Bart D. Erhman or Billy Graham Associate Chuck Templeton?

A Case Study: Bart Ehrman, a “Christian” Who Lost His Faith
https://www.epm.org › resources › case-study-bart-ehr...
Apr 15, 2020 — God's Problem documents how a “former Christian” denied his faith because he couldn't reconcile evil and suffering with God's goodness.



https://www.truthchallenge.one/blog/tag/bart-ehrman/

Chuck Templeton became a convert to Christ/Christianity in 1936 and then became an evangelist. He founded Avenue Road Church of the Nazarene in Toronto, Canada in 1941.

In 1945, he met with Torrey Johnson at Winona Lake, Indiana to form a group that became Youth for Christ. Billy Graham was hired as its first full-time evangelist. He and Templeton engaged in an evangelistic tour of Western Europe.

He attended Princeton Theological Seminary and hosted a weekly religious television show on CBS, Look Up and Live, in the 1950s.

He struggled with doubt about the Christian faith and in 1957 he announced he had become agnostic.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Do you actually know people who smear this garbage around? Name them, if you actually do.

But I dare say that no believer I know who believes in eternal security would even think of preaching such Jezebellian docrine.

The Bible teaches that one is secure WHEN they believe in Christ, because John 5:24 says those who believe POSSESS (have) eternal life). You can't undo that verse. Go ahead and try.

And Jesus was real clear in John 10:28 when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Obviously, you do not believe what Jesus said, and have preferred to stew in your own false doctrine.

For those idiot believers who do preach what you have claimed they do, there is another "side" to the coin of eternal security.

The salvation IS secure, but side 2, or the flip side is God's discipline for His rebellious and/or unfaithful children.

Heb 12:11 says His discipline is PAINFUL. So anyone who is stupid enough to abuse the reality of eternal security will be in for a very rough ride. Acts 5:5, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Tim 1:19,20 all teach about God's discipline for believers who stray.

look at this post here from page one:
Because of free will , a believer could technically become an atheist ..and their salvation remains..

The salvation remains because the initial salvation had nothing to do with good behavior.. but belief in Jesus. John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36.. Romans 5:8.. Ephesians 2:8-9.

But they would be convicted, rebuked and admonished to stop unbelief by God. This is where the scenario of a believer turning to atheism becomes very unlikely.

 

[FreeGrace2]

what about the Baptist Preacher now confirmed Atheist and leading Bible Scholar Bart D. Erhman or Billy Graham Associate Chuck Templeton?

A Case Study: Bart Ehrman, a “Christian” Who Lost His Faith
https://www.epm.org › resources › case-study-bart-ehr...
Apr 15, 2020 — God's Problem documents how a “former Christian” denied his faith because he couldn't reconcile evil and suffering with God's goodness.

Jesus already gave us the answer to these men, plus everyone else.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

What is Jesus saying about recipients of eternal life? Can you tell?

Chuck Templeton became a convert to Christ/Christianity in 1936 and then became an evangelist. He founded Avenue Road Church of the Nazarene in Toronto, Canada in 1941.

In 1945, he met with Torrey Johnson at Winona Lake, Indiana to form a group that became Youth for Christ. Billy Graham was hired as its first full-time evangelist. He and Templeton engaged in an evangelistic tour of Western Europe.

He attended Princeton Theological Seminary and hosted a weekly religious television show on CBS, Look Up and Live, in the 1950s.

He struggled with doubt about the Christian faith and in 1957 he announced he had become agnostic.

Good summary of Chuck.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you actually know people who smear this garbage around? Name them, if you actually do.

But I dare say that no believer I know who believes in eternal security would even think of preaching such Jezebellian docrine.

The Bible teaches that one is secure WHEN they believe in Christ, because John 5:24 says those who believe POSSESS (have) eternal life). You can't undo that verse. Go ahead and try.

look at this post here from page one:
Because of free will , a believer could technically become an atheist ..and their salvation remains..

So what? Did you take my suggestion and try to undo John 5:24 yet? Give it a try.

The salvation remains because the initial salvation had nothing to do with good behavior.. but belief in Jesus. John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36.. Romans 5:8.. Ephesians 2:8-9.

Right. Salvation remains regardless of behavior of the believer.

But they would be convicted, rebuked and admonished to stop unbelief by God. This is where the scenario of a believer turning to atheism becomes very unlikely.

But it happens. Chuck Templeton, and many others.

If you can undo John 5:24, let me know.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

The word "reap" clearly indicates reward for effort. The only way one will "reap a harvest" is to do the sweat work.

"Galatians 6:7-10 +
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Romans 2:6-7 +

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” [a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Tim 6:18-19 +

18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life [i.e. eternal life].

These are all verses about reward for effort. God does bless and reward work.

But salvation is a free gift. Cannot earn or deserve it.

Hi Free Grace. I agree with you on some points (1) Justification is Pure Grace/undeserved/unearned/unmerited. (2) Once we are Justified, by Grace through Faith, we can earn or merit Rewards in Heaven, by Good Works done in Faith post-Justification, according to 1 Cor 3: "The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor." Hence, they who labor more for the Lord, in Evangelism etc, will be rewarded more.

Although I am CS/non-OSAS, I also believe OSASers will be in Heaven. I just consider that that doctrine has some dangers/pitfalls. I even agree with you that (3) believers who go on sinning will be chastised by the Lord, according to Heb 12:11 which you cited: "11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Thus far, on these points, we agree.

I will even go further and say, (4) Perseverance in Grace, like Justification itself, is Pure Grace. We cannot earn/deserve/merit it. It is a Pure Gift but it is not necessarily given at the same time as Justification, but often much later.

And just 3 verses later, it says, "14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." which shows again imo that final salvation is dependent on perseverance in holiness until the end.

I know you disagree with the CS interpretation of Mat 24:13, but for me it's another clear verse talking about final salvation: "12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." The Lord is not speaking of deliverance from trials, but rather of not growing cold in love of Him.

Even in Jn 10:27-28, which you cite often, the Lord says: "27 My sheep (1) listen to my voice; (2) I know them, and (3) they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

So, as per that verse also, there are 3 conditions we have to fulfill. And when you take it along with Jn 6 and Jn 15 cited earlier, it becomes clear that the fulfilment of the promise in Jn 10:28 is dependent on what we are commanded to do.

The reason those 3 verses I cited speak of being given eternal life after persistence in good works is because those passages are speaking of final salvation, not initial justification. Any other interpretation doesn't reconcile with the texts.

God Bless.

 

[Komentaja]

This is an oft repeated myth. To fall away means to no longer believe. But it doesn't mean "no longer saved" as so many think.


This is another myth. The truth: once faith, "shall never perish". Jesus said so in John 10:28. In that verse, He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. No ifs, ands, or buts. He gave no exceptions, and no conditions on believers in order to never perish.

The gift of eternal life is possessed when a person believes in Christ. John 5:24


And they don't understand it at all. Arminians think that salvation can be lost. That is really a heresy.


Do you even understand what Jesus was telling the 11? When Jesus mentioned "abiding in Him and He in them" He was referring to being IN fellowship with the Lord. Believers who are out of fellowship cannot bear fruit. That was His point.

Why everyone seems to make it about salvation is amazing.


Ha. My Bible study method is exactly what the Bereans did with Paul's teachings. They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said is true."

That's what I have done with both Calvinist and Arminian teachings. And there are big errors in both. Neither system can quote verses that actually and plainly SAY what they keep claiming.


I have to wonder how accurate your heavily biased view of FG theology is.


Could you please simply state what specific teaching you are referring to?


Well, I never said such bunk. So if you want to discuss with me, at least be honest and accurate about what I believe.

Those who have never believed in Jesus will NEVER be saved. Got it? Do not ascribe to me whatever nonsense is out there.


OK, good to know. You do NOT believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Shame on you. I DO believe what He said.


You among all the rest.

I really like wasting time I guess. The reason people say its about salvation is because what happens to the ones who do not bear fruit? Yeah...

Fall away means exactly that, apostasy means to no longer be in the faith. The Bible doesn't teach you believe once and then dont and are saved, thats the non-good ground Jesus talks about in the parable of the sower, who believe for a while then fall off.

To believe is a continuing verb, you remain in the faith. If you die a nonbeliever, you will be dealt with as such. Don't be deceived by this guy or anyone else. What you are teaching is very very new and unheard of. You will be put on the ignore list, once a man is this deceived, all discussion is futile. I do believe John 10:28, but do you really want to get into it with Bible verses, it would be a landslide? Do you believe the verses about people falling away from the faith? The verses where Jesus says not all who say Lord Lord are saved but those who do the will of the Father, and these were believers who did works in Jesus' name... now imagine unbelievers lol.

What about

1 John 2:3-4
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Enjoy the heresy, God only knows how popular this teaching will become in these days, probably more and more, as it is a license to sin and in this case even further, you don't even gotta believe in Jesus (except once and then you can fall away). Its just so stupid, the Bible gives warnings for no reason? If you can fall away and its all good?

Don't bother writing a winded response as I just wasted time doing as you are on ignore and it will not be seen.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I really like wasting time I guess...Bible verses, it would be a landslide?

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat. I don't believe having
discussions in Great Bible studies concerning God And His Eternal Life
are a waste of time.

Since God Says "ALL Scripture Is Profitable for doctrine", then have
I "wasted my time" serving Him by prayerfully And Carefully
studying/reviewing/meditating on a "landslide" Of 12 Dozen
Scriptures Detailing His Facts Of Truth About His Eternal Life? ie:

God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ
God's Eternal Assurance

Please let me know IF you may have a "much better (time-saving)
method," as Many do not really like or care about this one
---------------------------------
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

if we can deny God, we can fall into apostasy like mentioned going to happen in the Last Days.

what i resent most is telling others they can sin like the world, sell their souls, become witches, and they are still Saved because of a False Doctrine called OSAS!

You must be one of those who thinks he never sins.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I am CS/non-OSAS, I also believe OSASers will be in Heaven. I just consider that that doctrine has some dangers/pitfalls...imo that final salvation is dependent on perseverance in holiness until the end.

1) "Whosoever calleth Upon The Name Of The LORD Shall Be Eternally Saved"
bar NONE, Due To The:

FULL Payment By Christ In HIS FINISHED Work On The Cross!​

2) Saints who behave as "sinners of the world" Will Suffer The Consequences
Both Now, And At The Judgment To Come! (1Co 3:8-15), note vs 15:

​

"If any man's work shall be burned, he Shall Suffer ​

LOSS: but he himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire."​

There is no authorization to change God's Plain And Clear Words Of Truth!

3) God's Doctrine Of His Eternal Salvation (aka osas) has no pitfalls, but
rather Has A Marvelous UPside for All humble believers who have Clearly
seen That they can "serve God out of LOVE, Already Having Been ETERNALLY
Saved" By HIM, His Precious BLOOD, And His Resurrection!! Amen?

How many are Devastated, Delirous, and live in a shipwrecked faith,
trying to "serve God out of TOTAL Fear of losing an UNscriptural
temporary life based on their behaviour," thus Nullifying:

God's Gospel Of GRACE, And HIS Precious And All-SUFFICIENT BLOOD
That He Shed In LOVE For us!

That would be, for those poor folks, NO:

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Cameron143]

1) "Whosoever calleth Upon The Name Of The LORD Shall Be Eternally Saved"
bar NONE, Due To The:

FULL Payment By Christ In HIS FINISHED Work On The Cross!​

2) Saints who behave as "sinners of the world" Will Suffer The Consequences
Both Now, And At The Judgment To Come! (1Co 3:8-15), note vs 15:

​

"If any man's work shall be burned, he Shall Suffer ​

LOSS: but he himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire."​

There is no authorization to change God's Plain And Clear Words Of Truth!

3) God's Doctrine Of His Eternal Salvation (aka osas) has no pitfalls, but
rather Has A Marvelous UPside for All humble believers who have Clearly
seen That they can "serve God out of LOVE, Already Having Been ETERNALLY
Saved" By HIM, His Precious BLOOD, And His Resurrection!! Amen?

How many are Devastated, Delirous, and live in a shipwrecked faith,
trying to "serve God out of TOTAL Fear of losing an UNscriptural
temporary life based on their behaviour," thus Nullifying:

God's Gospel Of GRACE, And HIS Precious And All-SUFFICIENT BLOOD
That He Shed In LOVE For us!

That would be, for those poor folks, NO:

GRACE And Peace...

I'm not actually replying to your response I just wanted to pose a question.
For those who believe only those who persevere to the end: is it you who are persevering or Christ in you who perseveres?
The reason I ask is because I assume that you believe salvation is by grace alone but it seems you are now adding your works to maintain your salvation.
Was Christ's life and death not sufficient?
Paul deals with the early church on this issue in Galatians. There the matter seems to be circumcision.
When James says faith without works is dead do you believe works are a requirement of salvation or merely an evidence of it?
Is perseverance necessary for salvation or merely a consequence of it?

 

[gb9]

You must be one of those who thinks he never sins.

thing is, a lot of Christians do not understand what sin really is.
they think, " i don't drink, i don't use bad language, i don't steal therefore i am not sinning".
sin is missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so.

so, when you see what sin really is, you will see the only way is to fully trust a Risen Savoir ....

 

[Dirtman]

if we can deny God, we can fall into apostasy like mentioned going to happen in the Last Days.

what i resent most is telling others they can sin like the world, sell their souls, become witches, and they are still Saved because of a False Doctrine called OSAS!

And to ice the cake, all ya gotta do to be saved is a repeat after me "prayer". When that has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Snacks]

True: Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief

Amen to that! 🙏

 

[AndrewMorgan]

How would we define logic? Would true logic lead a man down the path to believing a lie?

People like Dillahunty have studied subjects like logic, philosophy and the like formally. I am a "layman" in this and tend to address these terms in common parlance.
I tend to think of it as "reason".
As for "Would true logic lead a man down the path to a lie?" - It could if the man receiving the logic misunderstood the complexities of the discourse.