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Yeah but they don't lie, cheat steel, murder commit sexual immorality, etc etc so they must be good upstanding people, who are ok in the eyes of God, thus do not need a redeemer.
Poor us sinners.. wow are us
Poor us sinners.. wow are us
They dressed smartly,
They spoke well
They were well educated
They tithed their money
They read the Bible avidly
They invited people from the church into their home
They did not get drunk
They did not swear
They did not have affairs
They did not smoke
They did good deeds for everyone to see
They attended all their church meetings
The Pharisees would have passed all those tests with flying colours(I am sure if smoking had of been invented then they would not have smoked)
But Jesus said
Unless your goodness is greater thanm that of the Pharisees and Saducees you will not get into the kingdom of Heaven
You are so way off base because what you are addressing has nothing to do with practical righteousness as you have stated. What you have outlined above, is that if one practiced these disciplines in their life that grace had nothing to do with it and they should not be accepted. I would receive any of these, in the grace of God, that you have described above but not in terms of their own goodness. You have such a low esteem of believers and have little understanding how to build them up. The very grace you claim to have discredits those that have been saved by it. You project the law upon everyone unless they understand grace the way you do. I have tested it with you many times and you do not even know the kind of fruit that God bares in a Spirit-filled church among the believers that walk by faith in the light of God's word and have their heart established in grace.
BTW - Your quote of (Mt 5:20) should be ...That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This righteousness that 'exceeds' comes a whole different nature and origin than that of the scribes and Pharisees. Their righteousness was not just based upon the law and their adherence to it but upon their inward nature that they they believed to be without sin. They believed themselves to be a favoured class and stock of that came from Abraham. They had elevated themselves to a status of being sinless inwardly and outwardly. This is why Jesus addressed them as He did in (Mt 23 )...
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
They couldn't have this man that was a friend of publicans and sinners (Mt 9:11, Lk 15:1), who they accused of being a winebibbler and gluttoness (Mt 11:19), who kept company with harlots (Lk 7:39) and who blasphemed by making Himself equal with God (Mt 26:63-65), as one who they could call the MESSIAH and KING to reign and rule over them. You have to get out of the habit of always classifying Christians as Pharisees because of your experience and own understanding.
There are many believers and local assemblies all over the world that are not predisposed and conditioned to these tendencies that you fault so many Christians with. Perhaps in your own efforts you are guilty of the same thing that you accuse so many others of. As believers God has given us a new nature through the new birth that is created in God's righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). That is the righteousness that we have received by faith that exceeds all other kinds of righteousness.
BTW - Your quote of (Mt 5:20) should be ...That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This righteousness that 'exceeds' comes a whole different nature and origin than that of the scribes and Pharisees. Their righteousness was not just based upon the law and their adherence to it but upon their inward nature that they they believed to be without sin. They believed themselves to be a favoured class and stock of that came from Abraham. They had elevated themselves to a status of being sinless inwardly and outwardly. This is why Jesus addressed them as He did in (Mt 23 )...
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
They couldn't have this man that was a friend of publicans and sinners (Mt 9:11, Lk 15:1), who they accused of being a winebibbler and gluttoness (Mt 11:19), who kept company with harlots (Lk 7:39) and who blasphemed by making Himself equal with God (Mt 26:63-65), as one who they could call the MESSIAH and KING to reign and rule over them. You have to get out of the habit of always classifying Christians as Pharisees because of your experience and own understanding.
There are many believers and local assemblies all over the world that are not predisposed and conditioned to these tendencies that you fault so many Christians with. Perhaps in your own efforts you are guilty of the same thing that you accuse so many others of. As believers God has given us a new nature through the new birth that is created in God's righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). That is the righteousness that we have received by faith that exceeds all other kinds of righteousness.
There are two kinds of people who claim to be christian. Those who have meet God, and those who have not. The two do not have anything to fellowship over. Those who have not meet God claim righteousness while those who have meet Him morn over their unrighteousness. They are as different as Christ is from those scribes and Pharisees.
As you judge I have the spirit of antichrist in me you cannot consider me a Christian.
But why should I believe you. Three times I have asked you to confirm publically Christ spoke the truth in a verse of scripture and you refuse to do so.
So you will not publically endorse your Saviours words when he walked this earth. But I should listen to what you say and accept it?
If you will not accept and publically proclaim your acceptance of the plain words of Christ you are not in a position to remonstrate with me and show me what you perceive to be my error
But why should I believe you. Three times I have asked you to confirm publically Christ spoke the truth in a verse of scripture and you refuse to do so.
So you will not publically endorse your Saviours words when he walked this earth. But I should listen to what you say and accept it?
If you will not accept and publically proclaim your acceptance of the plain words of Christ you are not in a position to remonstrate with me and show me what you perceive to be my error
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I have decided that Red is a disturbing influence who is devoid of the truth, who only knows scripture and has not meet God. I asked him several times to tell me what he sees and hears when he enters God's presence, and he has not responded.
I was asked around the last time I was in church by the Spirit if these people were truly in His presence? As I could not know, I answered You know. He answered me saying, "If these were in My presence, would they forget me even before they left the building?" I watched to see what effect His presence had on them, and what was on their mind up until they left for the day. It was not on Him.
I don't know about you, but whenever I am in His presence, I cannot forget Him for days, and every single time I am changed in some fundamental way.
In Christ,
I never said a word about you not being a Christian, but when you believe that Jesus Christ was not Almighty God that became flesh and dwelt among men, that is the spirit of antichrist. When someone who says they believe yet does not esteem Jesus Christ as God in the flesh, they have expressed a spirit of antichrist and has turned the truth into a lie. I am just being practically truthfu and I wonder what your good buddy VW thinks of your belief that Christ was not God in the flesh.
E
I think you misunderstood him..
I have been to churches that follow the guidelines he used. If anyone would come to churhc in jeans they would be looked down on, If they did not tithe, they were unspiritual. They looked down on those who drink (even just socially without getting drunk) Smoked or cuss,
Again. Like many who try to deny OSAS think we are of the Licentious type. there are many churches that take legalism to the extreme.
As for Jesus quote. The pharisees were seen by the people in their time as the the most righteous people on earth. If one tried to find any fault (sin) in their lives, it would be hard to find one.
When Jesus said our righteousness needs to exced their. He was trying to show, that even the most righteous men on earth (according to the world) are not good enough to make it, for they are guilty themselves.
To bring it into todays perspective. Look at the most righteous person in your church, someone you can not look at and find any sin issues. If our righteousness does not exceed that persons, we will not make it (even he has not made it.)
He is trying to show people do not look at what the world calls good. Look at Gods standard, which is perfection.
I have been to churches that follow the guidelines he used. If anyone would come to churhc in jeans they would be looked down on, If they did not tithe, they were unspiritual. They looked down on those who drink (even just socially without getting drunk) Smoked or cuss,
Again. Like many who try to deny OSAS think we are of the Licentious type. there are many churches that take legalism to the extreme.
As for Jesus quote. The pharisees were seen by the people in their time as the the most righteous people on earth. If one tried to find any fault (sin) in their lives, it would be hard to find one.
When Jesus said our righteousness needs to exced their. He was trying to show, that even the most righteous men on earth (according to the world) are not good enough to make it, for they are guilty themselves.
To bring it into todays perspective. Look at the most righteous person in your church, someone you can not look at and find any sin issues. If our righteousness does not exceed that persons, we will not make it (even he has not made it.)
He is trying to show people do not look at what the world calls good. Look at Gods standard, which is perfection.
E
Does he believe Jesus is the "son of God" That he came to earth, fulfilled the law (lived a life of sinless perfection) then voluntarily allowed himself to be hung on the cross where he suffered the full wrath of God for ALL sin. Then voluntarily gave up the ghost (died) was then risen again on the third day the firstfruits of all who will follow after who have recieved his gift of salvation?
If he does (which I have not seen otherwise) he is saved.
If he does (which I have not seen otherwise) he is saved.
E
Yes they do, But they also see the sin in their life that they continue to struglle with, and are grateful to the father who loves them, and the son who mediates for them, that although they still can not live the life the law requires (sinless perfection) God is not going to kick them out of his family because they are failures. But loves them even more
I think you will find that VW along with eternally grateful understands what needs to be believed for a person to have eternal life, you do not seem to have grasped this sadly.
So you believe it is possible for a person to have the spirit of antichrist in them and still be saved?
When your beliefs are put under the microscope and we reach beneath the surface I am quite alarmed as to what you actually believe
In case you did not know Christ said that for a person to receive eternal life they must believe he is the son of God, that is what scripture actually says
But as you will not stand on the words of Christ when he walked this earth, or publically endorse them it shows that in effect you do not have a belief based on scripture but man
You appear to have a wooden understanding of scriptrure that does not allow for the heart of the Gospel
So you believe it is possible for a person to have the spirit of antichrist in them and still be saved?
When your beliefs are put under the microscope and we reach beneath the surface I am quite alarmed as to what you actually believe
In case you did not know Christ said that for a person to receive eternal life they must believe he is the son of God, that is what scripture actually says
But as you will not stand on the words of Christ when he walked this earth, or publically endorse them it shows that in effect you do not have a belief based on scripture but man
You appear to have a wooden understanding of scriptrure that does not allow for the heart of the Gospel