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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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These promoters of OSAS
These believers in eternal security brush aside pontifications that have no scripture and straw men. They focus on the Word of God and its plain teaching.

Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants;
And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 : “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard ”

4:18 glories in the fact that the Lord will deliver him from every evil work and will save him unto His heavenly kingdom.

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, . . .

Rm 6:23b


John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.


< ps 138
thy right hand will save me.
Jehovah will perfect that which concerns me:
Thy lovingkindness, O Jehovah, endureth forever;

Heb 11: looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,


Isaiah 26:12
Jehovah, thou wilt ordain peace for us; for thou hast also wrought all our works for us.

Eph 2
but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Philip 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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Originally Posted by DeanMarZ

I don't think once saved your always saved is true cause many people are saved but don't follow God.
They may not appear to follow God but the word of God is not returned void and they will indeed follow God and submit themselves for humble service at some point of their lives.
Here is another perfect illustration of this abstract salvation deception.

This person believes that a child molester could be "saved" and yet still continue molesting children. He simply believes in the "long haul approach" that EVENTUALLY the molester will stop.

What kind of Gospel is this? It is the SIN GOSPEL.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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It is very easy to make one lined comments but you cannot specifically address the issues I raise can you?

You are forced to convolute those issues and misdirect the conversation.
The one who ignores scripture & makes up his own stuff is the convoluter & misdirector.

The issue is Do you believe God's word or not?
Will you repent of reducing the Savior to a chance-giver & actually trust Him as SAvior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from there sins.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Are ONE-LINED comments bad?

Who is it that said,
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone but by over word that proceeds out of the mouth of God?

Which Bible character is famous for destroying the opposition with a bare verse out of context attached to "It is written"?
 
Nov 26, 2011
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The "Sin Gospel" is very palatable to people because it eliminates the strait gate and narrow way. It eliminates any need to be a doer of the word. It eliminates genuine repentance whereby one forsakes rebellion to God.

The "Sin Gospel" sells a purely abstract approach. Mouth some words, say a prayer and then WAIT. You don't have to do anything or that would be works. Just wait on God to eventually change you but in the meantime just "trust in Jesus." You'll keep "failing" as a "Romans Wretch" but don't worry God will complete His work in you.

It is an ingenious satanic deception which befuddles many. So many buy into it hook, line and sinker. They have been deceived into believing that they cannot obey God so they don't even truly try. The end result is sin, sin and more sin with a facade of "smiley face niceness" and "charitable works."

What a tragedy.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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You are overlooking the fact that "salvation" is being viewed as an abstract status apart from a real manifest internal transformation. Bookend believes salvation applies to a "status change" due to the legal exchange he believes the cross effected. Thus the believer is credited with the track record of Jesus and Jesus was credited with the sinning track record of the believer, it is a "legal swap" he believes in.

ie. post #661 http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94920-once-saved-always-saved-34.html#post1613828


Thus SeaBass you are attempting to dialogue with Bookends withing the framework of error. The most effective deceptions in this world is where both sides of a paradigm are artificial constructions and this is why Paul warned people to beware of "oppositions of knowledge falsely so called." Paul understood this dynamic of deception.
Bookend posted:

Christ blood paid the ransom for the persons sins, the transaction is irrevocable, the debt paid by Christ was paid in full and His righteousness has been imputed to the believer's account and likewise our sin was place on Jesus. He who knew no sin became sin for us.

But Bookend never provided any scripture to back that statement up.

Christ's righteousness is not imputed to the sinner unconditionally, the sinner must be conditionally, by obedience (Heb 5:9), placed "in Christ" and there be covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. By being "in Christ" his sins are all washed away by the blood of Christ but he MUST CONDITIONALLY remain in Christ for this to happen and not fall away, turn from Christ.

skinsky7 said:
Yo allude to 1Jn 1:6-10 as meaning that Christian's continue sinning yet that is not what John is teaching there. John is speaking of the "means" by which one is to "walk in the light" (v7) and that the "means" is conditional on coming clean with God about previous sin. When a repentant sinner approaches God they cannot claim that "they have no sin" to their account. It is only through being completely honest with oneself and also with God that one is then able to walk in the light. Read Hebrews 10:19-22 where the cleansing is spoken about, the cleansing which takes place when we approach God in all truth confessing our wrong doing.
Bookend made it appear that Eternal Security means it is impossible for the Christian to sin. 1 Jn 1:6-10 shows that Christians CAN and DO sin and in verses 7 and 9 John gives the remedy for the Christian's sins.

A person commits sins all his life before and after becoming a Christian. Before one becomes a Christian he must be baptized (Acts 2:38) for remission of sins. In baptism, Christ's blood cleanses away all the sins he has committed up to that point. From this point onward, he must continue to walk in the light so Christ's blood can CONTINUE to wash away all sins.

Bookend has not produced a verse that says a non-Christian's or Christian's sins are washed away unconditionally and continue to be washed away unconditionally.


skinski7 said:
The question you propose is entirely within the framework of error because salvation is not an abstract position. Salvation is literally a manifest state of having had the yolk of sin being literally broken whereby we are able to rule over sin as opposed to having sin ruled over us. Thus we are set free from the bondage of sin and therefore we no longer earn sins wages which is death.

The "manifest state" is connected to the "reconciled state" with God and one cannot forfeit one without the other. One cannot choose to sin and not surely die. The wages of sin will always be death and the death that is being spoken of is the end result. Being dead to God and the ultimate end of which is perdition.

It is through this release from bondage that God can cleanse us from all sin through the sacrifice of the cross as we are made partakers with Christ as we are raised up to newness of life as new creations. There is no true new creation experience occurring in all these false theologies because these people constantly defend a life of ongoing sin with their testimony of mandatory failure.

It is a real shame.
So when a Christian sins, must he:
1) conditionally repent of that sin to maintain salvation
2) do nothing for the sin cannot in anyway cause him to lose his salvation

It appears you answer my question with #2.

So when a Christian sins and does not repent of that sin he still will not "earn the wages of sin"?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Here is another perfect illustration of this abstract salvation deception.

This person believes that a child molester could be "saved" and yet still continue molesting children. He simply believes in the "long haul approach" that EVENTUALLY the molester will stop.

What kind of Gospel is this? It is the SIN GOSPEL.
What kind of Gospel is this?

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Now if you really want to be a wicked sinner who continues stubbornly in sin, keep dismissing the Lord Jesus as your Savior, call him a "chance-giver" and refuse to trust Him with your eternal destiny. The child-molesters belong to your group, not ours; for we have a Savior who saves us from our sins.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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These promoters of OSAS disconnect their "status change" from a "manifest change" although it may appear sometimes that they uphold a "manifest change." They contradict themselves with statements like...



Only to contradict themselves with...



They truly believe that they cannot obey God and thus they must uphold that one can disobey God and be reconciled at the very same time hence the disconnect between "justification" and "sanctification." They see a disconnect between the "status change" and the "manifest change."

The "manifest change" is gradual to them. I am not speaking of "growth" here, rather I am speaking of the root condition of the heart, that of a heart "full of iniquity" versus a "pure heart." The "growth" experience in Christianity is related to "knowledge" not to "heart purity." A Christian may fall short due to lack of knowledge but rebellion is out of the question.

The erroneous position of these people can be easily exposed by using extreme illustrations regarding sin. Can a truly born again Christian be addicted to pornography for example? These people will have to admit that yes they can be.

These people have to defend ongoing sin. If a born again Christian can be addicted to porn then they can be addicted to child molestation or murder too. One cannot have one without the other.

In true salvation the heart has been transformed and made clean. Thus a genuine salvation experience brings an end to the service of sin once and for all and there is no possible way for someone in a manifest saved state to go out and murder or commit sexual sins. To do so is to go back into bondage and the service of sin.
Ok, so you obey God 100%. You are sinless? We'll just have to see what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Seabass, how can you be walking in the light and post such darkness?

You seem to be in such darkness that you deny the plain reiterated promise of God, namely eternal life for the believer. It appears that you most willfully chose to walk in darkness.

1 John 2 has a marvelous eternal security passage which explains apostates as never having been in the Body of Christ. If they had been of the Body of Christ they would have remained. To be sure many unsaved church members profess to be Christian; they may attend services regularly & participate in their denominational hocus pocus. Many may say, Lord, Lord; but get the retort "I NEVER knew you. " Not that He once knew them, but now no longer. It is I NEVER knew you! You have no way of knowing who is a true child of God & who is not; though fruits give an indication, like apostasy.

Let he who denies that the Lord is the Savior, making Him a mere "chance-giver," repent and trust Christ as Savior.

Here is light:
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.

I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.



"The way of the wicked is as darkness,
They do not know at what they stumble."
Prov 4:19

He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world did not know him.
Jn 1:10

And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Jn 3:19

they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
< Rom 1:21

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
2 Cor 4:3-4

< Eph 4
as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind,being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;
No one has yet to show from the bible that a Christian's sins are all unconditionally, automatically cleansed away WITHOUT the Christian having to conditionally walk in the light.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
The "Sin Gospel" is very palatable to people because it eliminates the strait gate and narrow way. It eliminates any need to be a doer of the word. It eliminates genuine repentance whereby one forsakes rebellion to God.

The "Sin Gospel" sells a purely abstract approach. Mouth some words, say a prayer and then WAIT. You don't have to do anything or that would be works. Just wait on God to eventually change you but in the meantime just "trust in Jesus." You'll keep "failing" as a "Romans Wretch" but don't worry God will complete His work in you.

It is an ingenious satanic deception which befuddles many. So many buy into it hook, line and sinker. They have been deceived into believing that they cannot obey God so they don't even truly try. The end result is sin, sin and more sin with a facade of "smiley face niceness" and "charitable works."

What a tragedy.

What a tragedy for someone to go on pontificating with a Bible-allergy.

The strait & narrow gate is this one:
For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works."

The broad gate is the self-righteous gate, the gate of those who will not trust Christ as Savior, making Him at best a "chance-giver."

This is the only gate:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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No one has yet to show from the bible that a Christian's sins are all unconditionally, automatically cleansed away WITHOUT the Christian having to conditionally walk in the light.
Prove it SeaBass.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Wow! Scanning through these posts it is clear that those who cannot believe in eternal security or the OSAS have a problem. They must impute to God characteristics of men.

To be saved we must believe what Jesus said about Himself. We must have the convicting power of the Holy Spirit applied to our life. We cannot judge others as to whether they are saved or not. It is impossible for us to know as we cannot see into the heart of another man. We often lie to ourselves regarding our own sin so we have no business judging others.

Those who hold to the doctrine that salvation can be lost always have a flexible set of laws that they impose on others. They will twist and pervert scripture to make their set of standards the standards by which God must judge all men, other than themselves of course.

By the same standard with which we judge others we will also be judged. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are lost. The cross is Gods grace. Christ is the vicarious sacrifice for our sin. Where sin doth abound grace doth much more abound.

Saved but not perfected in the body of flesh. Each day I'm more conformed to the image of my Savior but I have a long way to go and will not be done till I see Him face to face. I cannot fix what is wrong with anyone other than myself. I can only fix myself as I yield to my Christ on a daily basis.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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The Gospel with Blah Blah

Sirs what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

So if you want the gospel WITHOUT THIS OR THAT,
there it is.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There are no withs tacked on.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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No one has yet to show from the bible that a Christian's sins are all unconditionally, automatically cleansed away WITHOUT the Christian having to conditionally walk in the light.
You will not see what you have determined does not exist. God's grace is greater than all our sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 12, 2014
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When a genuine Christian sins, he should repent, not to receive salvation all over again, that would be paramount to trampling of the blood of Christ and putting Him to open shame. In essence you'd be saying the blood of Christ wasn't sufficient to cleanse from all our sin. A genuine Christian will repent of their sin not for a re-union with God, but for continued communion with Him. For we know if we grieve the HS within us, His presence in our life is quenched and our relationship with Him hinders.
The purpose of repentance is salvation Lk 13:3,5; Acts 2:38; 2 Cor 7:10; 2 Pet 3:9.

If repentance is not for the purpose of salvation then it serves no necessary purpose at all. If repentance is not for salvation, then what difference would it make if one repented or not? None.

1 Jn 1:7 shows that the continued walking (which includes repentance/confession of sins) is necessary for Christ's blood to cleanse away all sin. Those in Heb 6 that crucify Christ afresh and put Christ to an open shame are the ones that quit walking in the light altogether.

You post: A genuine Christian will repent of their sin not for a re-union with God, but for continued communion with Him

A Christian cannot be out of communion with God, out of fellowship with God and still be saved. So repentance is NECESSARY for a continued saved relationship with God.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Bookend posted:

Christ blood paid the ransom for the persons sins, the transaction is irrevocable, the debt paid by Christ was paid in full and His righteousness has been imputed to the believer's account and likewise our sin was place on Jesus. He who knew no sin became sin for us.

But Bookend never provided any scripture to back that statement up.

Christ's righteousness is not imputed to the sinner unconditionally, the sinner must be conditionally, by obedience (Heb 5:9), placed "in Christ" and there be covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. By being "in Christ" his sins are all washed away by the blood of Christ but he MUST CONDITIONALLY remain in Christ for this to happen and not fall away, turn from Christ.[/verse]

Heb 5:9 does not support your theory, SeeBass. You say a lot of things, but prove nothing.


Bookend made it appear that Eternal Security means it is impossible for the Christian to sin.
What is your proof of that?

A person commits sins all his life before and after becoming a Christian. Before one becomes a Christian he must be baptized (Acts 2:38) for remission of sins. In baptism, Christ's blood cleanses away all the sins he has committed up to that point. From this point onward, he must continue to walk in the light so Christ's blood can CONTINUE to wash away all sins.
Scripture does not say any such thing about water baptism. It also does not say that in baptism Christ's blood washes away only prior sins.


So when a Christian sins, must he:
1) conditionally repent of that sin to maintain salvation
2) do nothing for the sin cannot in anyway cause him to lose his salvation
False choices.

So when a Christian sins and does not repent of that sin he still will not "earn the wages of sin"?
All the Christians sins were paid for on the cross by the Lord Jesus. But God commends His own love for us in that while were were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 

Atwood

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May 1, 2014
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Salvation 102 Many Questions Are Being Raised on Salvation

Instead of going after all these SeaBass, etc. questions on Salvation, I will provide an introduction to Salvation in hopes of covering all these questions:


INTRO TO DOCTRINE OF SALVATION (SOTERIOLOGY)

A. IMPORTANCE OF CORRECTNESS

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

B. TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN

Much of our understanding of salvation is influenced by our understanding the man is totally depraved. There is none who does good, no not one. Even the plowing of the unsaved farmer expresses his sinfulness because of his selfish motive, not done to glorify God. Total Depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he cud be, but that all of his being is affected by sin & nothing he does is good before God.


C. GOD'S PROVISION IS TOTAL & COMPLETE

On the cross Christ said, "It is finished."

Romans 8 ends with an unbreakable chain:
"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Romans 8: "He who spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things."

Gal: "Grace to you..from God the Father & our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, THAT HE MIGHT DELIVER US OUT OF THIS PRESENT EVIL AGE, according to the will of our God & Father"

D. 3 TENSES OF SALVATION: past, present, future.

1. Past Salvation.
We were saved from the guilt & penalty of sin.
The Christian can rightly say after He trusts Christ as savior, "I was saved."
2 Tim 1:8-9 For God did not give us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power & love & discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, not of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose & grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,


Eph 2 "God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead thru our trespasses, made us alive together w/ Christ (by grace you have been saved) & raised us up w/ him & made us to sit w/ him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED thru faith; & that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory.

2. Present Salvation:
We have deliverance from the Power of Sin.
1 Cor 1:18: ""For the word of the cross is to them who perish foolishness; but to us who ARE BEING SAVED it is the power of God."

2 Cor 2:15: " For we are a sweet savor of Christ to God, in them WHO ARE BEING SAVED, and in them who are perishing; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God. But as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, we speak in Christ."

While a depraved child of Adam inevitably sins, a born-again Christian does not have to sin. A way of escape is always made for him. 1 Cor 10:13: There has no temptation taken you but such as man can bear; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

3. Future Salvation:
We shall be saved from the presence of indwelling Sin, be glorified, and live in bliss with the Lord forever.

But God commends his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;
 
Nov 26, 2011
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Ok, so you obey God 100%. You are sinless? We'll just have to see what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment.
Another one line statement of dismissal. Again you simply cannot address the issues I raise. You have to dismiss them like all religious imposters do. Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about heart purity and they simply ignored it and tried to entrap him with spiritless law. You just blow off the idea that a literal manifest inward transformation is in anyway connected to the salvation experience. Salvation to you is akin to a "package" which you simply "accept."

You plainly imply it is impossible to obey God. You thus believe that God gives the Holy Spirit to the disobedient, you believe that eternal life is given to the disobedient.

The only real difference between the "saved" and the "lost" in your theological system is the "package." Both the "saved" and "lost" are disobedient rebels, one just trusts in the "Jesus Swap."

I am curious as to whether you have ever actually sat down and really thought about it. Think outside that theological box for just one time in you life.

Being deceived implies one is not aware they are deceived. Be honest and ask yourself as to why you cannot directly address the points I raise. Why is it that you have to drop one lined misdirects? Think about it.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Salvation 101

In a couple of posts, I attempt to cover all the bases on basic questions regarding salvation. This one covers the canard that salvation is not instantaneously received in this life, but only concerns the outcome of some future judgment:


Instant Salvation in Past Tense

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)

Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:


But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)

Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)

Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.


In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.


[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9

Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.

he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)


The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.

Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.

Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.


he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)

It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.

Illustration of the Saved Attitude:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly; and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee, say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’ And if he shall say that thou art a sinner, say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee. ‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation, say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’ If he say that he is wroth with thee, say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me. ‘And when thou hast completed this, say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Do neither one.

First of all, if a "Christian" sins by denying that Christ is His Savior, making Him a mere "chance-giver," the "Christian" should repent of pretending to be a Christian and actually trust the Savior to save.

Second, if the Christian does trust Christ as Savior, he shall follow 1 John 1:

but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another. , And the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin; if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Let us stop making up hypotheticals and worrying about this & that, things that are irrelevant to the truth.

There is this Savior Who paid for your sins on the cross? Will you have Him save you -- or will you pretend you can do it yourself and claim He is only a chance-giver.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
QED
A Christian committing sins is not a "hypothetical" it actually happens so I asked the legitimate question:


So when a Christian sins, must he:

1) conditionally repent of that sin to maintain salvation

or

2) do nothing for the sin cannot in anyway cause him to lose his salvation

You answered "neither".

A Christian will either have to do something or do nothing about his sins for there is no inbetween.

But then you do say (in blue):

Second, if the Christian does trust Christ as Savior, he shall follow 1 John 1:

but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another. , And the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin; if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have been denying this all along. I have said over and over if the Christian sins then he must CONDITIOANLLY follow what John said in 1 Jn 1. Now YOU say that yourself and by doing so just made salvation CONDITIOANL for the Christian by following 1 Jn 1.

Following 1 Jn 1 is the answer to #1 of my question I gave that the Christian must conditionally repent
Yet if eternal security were true, then #2 would be the answer, the Christian can simply do nothing about his sin and still be saved.