original sin

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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We can speculate all we want. The smart thing to do is to check out what the Bible says is wrong with man. It says that the problem with man is his heart. That is why when a person is chosen by the Father, his sins are washed away by the Son, and his heart is fixed by the Holy Spirit who fills our hearts with the same love shared by the Father an Son, and therefore perfects us.
does the Bible say Adam was created very good in God's image with a wicked heart and no ability to discern good from evil?
was it Satan or was it God who said that eating from the tree-of-surely-die would make a person like God?
was it Satan or was it God who said that eating from the tree-of-surely-die would make a person know good from evil?

the Bible says a man will leave his Father and cling to his wife.
the Bible says Adam listened to the voice of his wife.
the Bible says Adam was not deceived.


what did she say to him?
 

posthuman

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In other words, there was absolutely nothing in early Man's psyche
restraining him from parading around in full frontal exposure; and actually,
neither was there anything in his psyche encouraging him to; i.e. they
weren't exhibitionists by any stretch of the imagination because in their
innocence, Adam and his wife simply were neither proud of, nor humiliated
by, their appearance in the buff.
there was no sin in them. they had nothing that needed to be 'covered' i.e. 'atoned for' ((same word in Hebrew, "kaphar"))

think about Psalm 32:5, Mark 11:12-25, and Exodus 20:22-26. about what God did immediately after Adam changed his wife's name to Eve. think about the fact that Adam & Eve both confessed. that the Serpent was not granted to speak in His court.

remember that the Bible is a revelation of the person of God to mankind. that is its purpose. it is not a book about man; it is a book about God. this isn't about the flesh; "the law is spiritual" -- many things in Genesis 2-3 are not written. the things that are written are written in order to teach us about Jesus Christ.
 
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Seems Adam was faced with a choice concerning his wife. If he didn't 'listen ' to her what would happen? Must have been valuable enough to disobey God. God was made out to be evil. But Adam wasn't deceived.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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Seems Adam was faced with a choice concerning his wife. If he didn't 'listen ' to her what would happen? Must have been valuable enough to disobey God. God was made out to be evil. But Adam wasn't deceived.
"A man will leave his father and cling to his wife"?
 

posthuman

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Seems Adam was faced with a choice concerning his wife. If he didn't 'listen ' to her what would happen? Must have been valuable enough to disobey God. God was made out to be evil. But Adam wasn't deceived.
so it wasn't for the same reason that Eve sinned, that Adam did.

part of the choice was this: if Adam did not eat of the tree, Adam would live and his wife would die.
 

posthuman

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"A man will leave his father and cling to his wife"?
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
(Genesis 2:24 nkjv)
 

posthuman

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Thinkin' could he save her?
i think she probably said something like 'save me' yeah

and what's one of the biggest false doctrines we have today within the church? that we can save ourselves, the works-salvation. Israel failed, thinking that they could establish their own righteousness.
but God says He, and He alone is our Saviour, and there is no other.


so maybe Woman, having sin, and infected with death, asks the wrong person to save her, and Adam listened. because he loves her.
 

posthuman

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Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
(Genesis 2:24 nkjv)

Douay-Rheims, ASV, YLT, etc say "cleave to his wife"

compare:

Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God;
Him shalt thou serve, and to Him shalt thou cleave, and swear by His name.
(Deuteronomy 10:20 KJV)​
He is our Husband

for Adam to be undeceived and listen to his wife, he chose her instead of the Lord -- leaving Him to cleave to her, joining her in her fate, consciously making this decision
 

Magenta

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i think she probably said something like 'save me' yeah

and what's one of the biggest false doctrines we have today within the church? that we can save ourselves, the works-salvation. Israel failed, thinking that they could establish their own righteousness.
but God says He, and He alone is our Saviour, and there is no other.


so maybe Woman, having sin, and infected with death, asks the wrong person to save her, and Adam listened. because he loves her.
Why would she ask Adam to save her? I see nothing in the text to suggest it.

In fact, the text suggests their eyes were opened at the same time...
 

Webers.Home

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Gen 3:1a . . Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field
which the Lord God had made.

Probably no other creature in the Bible provokes so much skepticism as the
Serpent. It just smacks of mythology.

But this particular serpent was no ordinary reptile. It was indeed a
remarkable creature. Not only was it capable of language, and able to
communicate on a very sophisticated level with human beings, but it had an
exceptional IQ too. It grasped the significance of a supreme being, and
totally understood the workings of human nature and the human mind. No
mere animal is capable of that degree of insight, cognition, and
communication.

The final book in the New Testament confirms the Serpent's true identity,
and it is none other than the dark spirit being well known to everyone as the
Devil and Satan. (Rev 20:1-3).

According to Christ, Mr. Serpent was in the world from the very beginning;
and his stock in trade was murder and deception right from the get go.
(John 8:44)

Since Rev 20:1-3 has not yet come to pass, then the Serpent remains at
large and very active in today's modern world. It is highly skilled at mental
suggestions: secretly guiding mankind along a road to self destruction. It is
the source of much of the world's political tensions, and certainly the
impetus behind all large scale anti-Semitic agendas.

I have never seen the Serpent myself; nor would I care to. But I know from
Matt 4:1-11 that Christ saw it, and spoke with it. From that passage it's
obvious that the Serpent is capable of human speech, understands human
needs and weaknesses, believes in the existence of God, understands the
concept of worship, a master of sophistry, understands the Bible, and
understands the advantages of manipulating human minds, and world
power.

The Serpent certainly wasn't squeamish about tempting the Son of God to
sin; so it should come as no surprise that it wouldn't hesitate to entice a
little nobody like Eve. But Eve was extremely strategic; she was the high
ground in the battle for men's minds, because Eve was destined to be the
mother of all subsequent human beings. If the Serpent could get to the root
of humanity, it would surely gain control over the entire human race; and it
did. (Eph 2:1-3)

The Serpent seems possessed with a strange, criminal mentality: beyond
comprehension. But then, so are pedophiles, serial killers, unabombers, ISIS
extremists, terrorists, and men like Son of Sam, Ted Bundy, Paul Bernardo,
Karla Homolka, Ted Kaczynski, and Jack the Ripper. Those kinds of criminals
are prisoners of dark minds clouded with anti-social inclinations. The
Serpent, though surely an incredible genius; is nonetheless an evil genius;
not unlike the nefarious masterminds in action comics.

Psychopaths are a cunning breed of predators who lack empathy, remorse,
and impulse control; readily violating social rules and exploiting others to get
what they want. Curiously, psychopaths are often so charming and
manipulative that they are well-concealed behind a mask of normalcy
sometimes for years and even their entire lives.

But the origin of the Serpent's twisted mind is really puzzling. How did it get
that way? Was it a birth defect? Did it bump its head?

I don't know; but one thing is for sure though: the Serpent's fondness for
deceit is living proof that angels are not mindless robots created to obey the
will of God without thought or question. No; they too have a mind of their
own, and the freedom of choice between good and evil-- the very same
choices that Man is at liberty to exercise. Satan chose poorly, and his human
counterparts oftentimes do too.
_
 

Webers.Home

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Continued From Posts No.133, 137, and 151


Gen 3:1b . . He said to the woman,

A characteristic of Eden's world was not only a lack of human death, but also
a lack of fear. Man feared neither himself, nor the other creatures, nor the
dark, nor the boogie man.

The woman displayed no recorded astonishment whatsoever when the
Serpent spoke to her; which suggests it had associated with the Adams on
other occasions before this incident; and possibly had become a close family
friend. Before making its move to wreck their life, the Serpent more than
likely spent some time in advance nurturing a rapport with the Adams so the
woman would have no cause for alarm when it approached; and would.
therefore not suspect its intentions.

That's actually a pretty effective sales approach. Many years ago I tried
selling a line of high-end vacuum cleaners for a while. I was trained to
engage potential customers in chit-chat, a.k.a. small talk, to break the ice
and get them to let their guards down. In other words; to build some trust
before I got down to the predatory business of talking them into buying
something expensive that they could easily get by without.

An innocent who had never been exposed to evil, the woman would certainly
never suspect one of God's creatures to be anything but honest and truthful.
Up to this point, the woman wasn't even aware that something called
dishonesty existed. And actually, she didn't even know what honesty was
either because nobody had taught her anything about it yet.
_
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Why would she ask Adam to save her? I see nothing in the text to suggest it.

In fact, the text suggests their eyes were opened at the same time...
she would ask Adam to save her, or not to leave her, because he is her husband and she is dying.


suppose you watched the Disney movie 'Frozen' 7 years ago. i have never seen it, but suppose i watch it next week. after i watch it, it is accurate to say about us "and both of them saw Frozen"
you and i have both been born -- we can say "and both of them were born" even though it was years apart.

point being, saying that both their eyes were opened doesn't indicate that they were opened simultaneously. it only indicates that that they both reached the same state. there is no time reference in Genesis 3:7

the text does not suggest their eyes were opened at the same time. the text by itself is ambiguous about when their eyes were opened, but the context suggests it happened upon eating the fruit. the text is explicit that they did not eat at the same time.
similarly the text is ambiguous about Adam being present when Satan deceives his wife. context, and inference from Timothy, makes it impossible that he was -- because Woman was first in transgression and Adam wasn't deceived. if Adam is standing there like an idiot, himself not being deceived, himself knowing the truth, himself the first created man & federal head of all mankind, the husband to his wife, failing to speak up or do anything to prevent his wife from falling into what he very much knew was sin ((because he's not deceived)), then Adam is first in transgression because of Leviticus 5:1, Ezekiel 3:18 & James 4:17 for example: Satan is accusing God of evil, and Woman is believing it. Adam knows God is not evil and that Satan is lying -- Adam is guilty by failing to reject Satan's false testimony, before his wife is guilty for acting on it.
 

Webers.Home

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Continued From Posts No.133, 137, 151, and 152

Gen 3:1c . . Did God really say: You shall not eat of any tree of the
garden?

Why didn't the Serpent attempt to trick the male before turning to the
female? Well, Adam was a tougher nut to crack because he got his intel
straight from the horse's mouth. But the woman quite possibly was
instructed second hand, in conversations with her husband; who was, in
effect, her personal rabbi. So it would be fairly easy to convince the woman
that maybe she didn't hear her husband correctly; or worse; that he didn't
know what he was talking about. I mean: isn't there more than one way to
explain the Bible? How do you know your way is the right way?

Of course it was ridiculous to suggest the humans were forbidden to eat of
"any" tree. But the Serpent was slowly sneaking up on the woman with
subtle suggestions. Probing for weak points, the Serpent tested her
understanding of God's instructions by asking a question that she should
have been able to answer with relative ease. In response; the woman
bounced right back and quoted God like a pro (or so she thought).

Gen 3:2-3 . . The woman replied to the serpent: We may eat of the fruit of
the other trees of the garden. It is only about fruit of the tree in the middle
of the garden that God said: You shall not eat of it or touch it, lest you die.

Is that really what God said? No, that's not what God said. He forbad their
eating the fruit, yes; but said nothing about touching it. (Gen 2:16-17)

The woman failed to repeat what God said, rather, she interpreted what He
said. Apparently, in her mind's eye, the ban on eating the fruit implied not
touching it. Consequently; her humanistic reasoning put a spin on God's
instructions so that instead of following them to the letter, the woman
revised them to mean something that God didn't actually say.

The woman fell prey to a very human weakness-- not only of interpreting
God, but of a tendency to embellish His rules and make them more
cumbersome and more strict than they really are.
_
 
Aug 14, 2019
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i think she probably said something like 'save me' yeah

and what's one of the biggest false doctrines we have today within the church? that we can save ourselves, the works-salvation. Israel failed, thinking that they could establish their own righteousness.
but God says He, and He alone is our Saviour, and there is no other.


so maybe Woman, having sin, and infected with death, asks the wrong person to save her, and Adam listened. because he loves her.
Hmmm. I wonder.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The woman displayed no recorded astonishment whatsoever when the
Serpent spoke to her; which suggests it had associated with the Adams on
other occasions before this incident; and possibly had become a close family
friend. Before making its move to wreck their life, the Serpent more than
likely spent some time in advance nurturing a rapport with the Adams so the
woman would have no cause for alarm when it approached; and would.
therefore not suspect its intentions.

Adam was not deceived
(1 Timothy 2:14)
 
Aug 14, 2019
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[laws
But the origin of the Serpent's twisted mind is really puzzling. How did
He thinks all the trees in the garden are his tree.
Gen 3
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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isn't there more than one way to
explain the Bible? How do you know your way is the right way?
here are three good requirements a right interpretation satisfies:
  1. it does not contradict or set scripture against itself
  2. it takes the highest possible view of God
  3. it testifies of Christ