original sin

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#101
Jul 31, 2013
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#101
Benadam said:
We reproduce like animals because like them we die. When we no longer die the urge to reproduce is not our master.
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Hmm but God told them to multiply in Genesis 1:28..
I suppose this could be 'after' Genesis 3. The preceding verse 1:27 is actually describing a time after Genesis 2 - so I can understand how 1:28 is actually taking place after Genesis 3.

Hebrew literature is written sometimes in a way not like we do; it's not necessarily in order of time, but of importance and relevance.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#102
May 23, 2012
12,302
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#102
posthuman said:
It can eat and drink physical food and wine
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well, we know from the word of God Jesus did eat after the resurrection with the disciples. There are many theologians who say I don't know for sure, the reason why Jesus ate was only for the fellowship with those HE was with at the time. there is no greater time of fellowship then at the table :)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#103
Jul 3, 2015
55,826
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#103
We can know A&E did not eat from the Tree of Life by the use of one little word in the text.

To assume they had immortality by the fact of their physical life is erroneous.

The physical comes first and then the Spiritual through Christ alone.

Shall we examine the text rather than wrongfully assume?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

If he had already, it would not be also, but again.

Adam and Eve were prevented from eating from the ToL following their
disobedience. If they already had they would have attained to life ever after.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#104
Jul 3, 2015
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#104
Webers.Home said:
I think that's a valid inquiry.

Adam was given liberty to eat from any tree in the garden he wanted except
the one. I rather suspect Adam roamed all over the place; exploring and
sampling the fruit of every tree he encountered; including the tree of life.
_
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Yes, it is a valid inquiry, but there is absolutely nothing in the text to support what you suspect.
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

Well-known member
#105
May 28, 2018
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#105
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posthuman said:
is death and decay very good?
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Yes, absolutely!

When plants and animals die, their bodies decompose and eventually
become the organic materials that many types of soil require in order to
remain productive.

Back then, every critter on Earth, including humans, were vegetarians. So
you can appreciate just how important it would be to keep the ground
healthy.

NOTE: It's commonly assumed that Adam brought all death into the world,
but not so; according to Rom 5:12-21, he only brought human death.
_
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

Well-known member
#106
May 28, 2018
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#106
posthuman said:
had they eaten from the tree of life before they ate from the tree of good
from evil? such that its presumed life-giving effect can be ((& was))
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The tree of life isn't portrayed in the Bible as a source of life, rather, as a
medicine for whatever ails you. (Rev 22:2)

The tree of life doesn't work like a vaccine; in other words: it isn't
preventative; rather, it's a remedy.

When Adam tasted the wrong fruit, his body became infected with mortality.
The tree of life would've cured him and restored his body to perfect health.
_
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#107
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
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#107
Webers.Home said:
NOTE: It's commonly assumed that Adam brought all death into the world,
but not so; according to Rom 5:12-21, he only brought human death.
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I don't think you can say 'according to Romans' here - - there is not a different word for death being used that only refers to human death. Remember that in Romans its also written that the creation was subjected to frustration not of its own account, clearly with reference to the earth being cursed for Adam's sake.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#108
Jul 2, 2011
21,229
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#108
UCA4J said:
do you have an example of this ?
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It is in the New Testament, until a person is aware he or she has sinned it is not counted against the person. If the person is a believer and is made aware, repentance is necessary.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#109
Jul 3, 2015
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#109
posthuman said:
I don't think you can say 'according to Romans' here - - there is not a different word for death being used that only refers to human death. Remember that in Romans its also written that the creation was subjected to frustration not of its own account, clearly with reference to the earth being cursed for Adam's sake.
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Indeed. In fact the text explicitly says death entered the world through one man.

Romans 5:12-21 only addresses the human aspect of that.

That does not mean animal deaths were present beforehand.

The first animal death is presented with A&E's covering for sin.

Which is a foreshadowing of Christ's shed blood for the same purpose.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#110
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
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#110
Webers.Home said:
When Adam tasted the wrong fruit, his body became infected with mortality.
The tree of life would've cured him and restored his body to perfect health
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Why wouldn't God want that to happen?
Why would God in fact take measures specifically to prevent that?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#111
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
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#111
CS1 said:
well, we know from the word of God Jesus did eat after the resurrection with the disciples. There are many theologians who say I don't know for sure, the reason why Jesus ate was only for the fellowship with those HE was with at the time. there is no greater time of fellowship then at the table :)
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He first ate in the upper room in order to prove that the resurrection is bodily resurrection. In John 21 there may be a stronger fellowship aspect, tho i don't think that's the purpose. The purpose is revealing Himself as God IMO. Providing. Dwelling with. Saving.

But in the upper room the "proof" is nullified if He's only pretending to eat in order to make them feel comfortable and welcome.

Both cases are a complement to the OT announcement of the birth of Samson, where He says He will not eat their food, and instructs them instead to make it a burnt offering.
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

Well-known member
#112
May 28, 2018
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#112
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Magenta said:
Indeed. In fact the text explicitly says death entered the world through one
man. Romans 5:12-21 only addresses the human aspect of that. That does
not mean animal deaths were present beforehand.
Click to expand...

As far as can be known from scripture, Man is the only specie that God
created in His own image. None of the flora, nor any of the fauna, was
created like that.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around Adam by means of nature's fragility, i.e. death wasn't a strange
new word in his vocabulary, viz: God didn't have to take a moment and
define death for Adam seeing as how it was doubtless a common occurrence
in his everyday life.

Adam saw things born, he saw things grow to maturity, he saw things
gradually wither, he saw their life ebb away, and he saw them decay and
dissolve into nothing. So I think we can be reasonably confident that Adam
was up to speed on at least the common aspects of death; viz: he was
familiar with mortality simply by exploring and observing nature, otherwise
the warning given him in Gen 2:17 would've failed to resonate in his
thinking.
_
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#113
Jul 3, 2015
55,826
26,002
113
#113
Webers.Home said:
As far as can be known from scripture, Man is the only specie that God
created in His own image. None of the flora, nor any of the fauna, was
created like that.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around Adam by means of nature's fragility, i.e. death wasn't a strange
new word in his vocabulary, viz: God didn't have to take a moment and
define death for Adam seeing as how it was doubtless a common occurrence
in his everyday life.

Adam saw things born, he saw things grow to maturity, he saw things
gradually wither, he saw their life ebb away, and he saw them decay and
dissolve into nothing. So I think we can be reasonably confident that Adam
was up to speed on at least the common aspects of death; viz: he was
familiar with mortality simply by exploring and observing nature, otherwise
the warning given him in Gen 2:17 would've failed to resonate in his
thinking.
_
Click to expand...
There is nothing in the text to support your theorizing on death's prevalence pre-fall.
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

Well-known member
#114
May 28, 2018
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#114
.
posthuman said:
Why wouldn't God want that to happen? Why would God in fact take
measures specifically to prevent that?
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The language and grammar of the warning given Adam in Gen 2:17 is pretty
definite. Adam had to die for what he did; no getting out of it.
_
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#115
May 23, 2012
12,302
4,046
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#115
posthuman said:
He first ate in the upper room in order to prove that the resurrection is bodily resurrection. In John 21 there may be a stronger fellowship aspect, tho i don't think that's the purpose. The purpose is revealing Himself as God IMO. Providing. Dwelling with. Saving.

But in the upper room the "proof" is nullified if He's only pretending to eat in order to make them feel comfortable and welcome.

Both cases are a complement to the OT announcement of the birth of Samson, where He says He will not eat their food, and instructs them instead to make it a burnt offering.
Click to expand...
the bible only records a time or two of Jesu eating after the resurrection however, he abided with them for 40 days after the resurrection. Are you thinking they did not eat again? Or did Jesus only eat where it says he ate?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#116
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
13,121
113
#116
CS1 said:
the bible only records a time or two of Jesu eating after the resurrection however, he abided with them for 40 days after the resurrection. Are you thinking they did not eat again? Or did Jesus only eat where it says he ate?
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I'm thinking He ate as He normally ate. Is it that He was with them all day and night for 40 days or He kept appearing to them over a period of 40 days?
I'd need to look it up but can't at the moment
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#117
May 23, 2012
12,302
4,046
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#117
posthuman said:
I'm thinking He ate as He normally ate. Is it that He was with them all day and night for 40 days or He kept appearing to them over a period of 40 days?
I'd need to look it up but can't at the moment
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I'm just asking I don't know :) I could be wrong in my understanding
 
C

CorrectiveLens

Banned
#118
Dec 30, 2020
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226
43
#118
posthuman said:
how does God count their eating from the tree against them if they had no idea it was wrong to do so?
how does God count disobeying His command against them if they didn't even have a concept of 'it's right to obey' ?
why would God want to prevent them from knowing that they should choose good and reject evil?
why would He punish them with death because they found out that goodness is good?

that's a thoughtless, extremely simplistic, and untenable view.
unfortunately it's what the modern church teaches almost ubiquitously.
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posthuman said:
how does God count their eating from the tree against them if they had no idea it was wrong to do so?
how does God count disobeying His command against them if they didn't even have a concept of 'it's right to obey' ?
why would God want to prevent them from knowing that they should choose good and reject evil?
why would He punish them with death because they found out that goodness is good?

that's a thoughtless, extremely simplistic, and untenable view.
unfortunately it's what the modern church teaches almost ubiquitously.
Click to expand...
 
C

CorrectiveLens

Banned
#119
Dec 30, 2020
868
226
43
#119
Why do you think of Adam and Eve as having the minds of children? They were adults with intelligence. They were able to communicate. Were you there when God told them to not eat of the forbidden fruit of the tree? God didn't just pop up and tell them not to eat. They were in communication with each other. Adam and Eve knew that God was the creator of everything and has to be obeyed. He specifically told them what would happen if they disobeyed. It wasn't a question of knowing right from wrong. It was a question of obeying or suffering the consequences. I, personally, put my trust in the Bible and that God is good, loving, wise, merciful, and just. I will not second guess God. Also, I get all my thoughtless, extremely simplistic, and untenable view straight from the Bible. The church that I belong to is the one established by God and not men. I would refer you to 1 Cor 1: 26-28.

Please, submit your thoughtful, more complicated, and tenable view for everyone to consider.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#120
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
13,121
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#120
CorrectiveLens said:
Why do you think of Adam and Eve as having the minds of children?
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Even children know the difference between good and evil, that it is right to obey and wrong to disobey.

In a court is it just to punish an imbecile whose IQ is so low they can't be said to understand that what they have done was wrong?
 
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