OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[DesiredHaven]

If we compared the language Paul uses in Galations to the Acts situation where those who believed (who went out from them) teaching what the apostles did not. Paul seems to wrap all of it into Galations very nicely.

The yoke of bondage (which is shown in both Acts 15:10 & Gal 5:1) Along with those that trouble you with words (is shown in Acts 15:24 & Gal 1:7, & Gal 5:12). The law of Moses and the circumcision issue (Shown in Acts 15:1 & Gal 5:2) and the grace of the Lord Jesus in contrast to their words (Shown in Acts 15:11 & Gal 5:4) These speak in accord with the same wording. Paul hits the same (point by point) using the same wording surrounding that issue in Galations.

In Gal 1:7 Paul speaks to the same thing as shown in the counsel in Acts, that there are "some that trouble you" (and with words supposedly as by them). These certain ones (which went out) in Acts preached were saying "except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved" thus as James said these "trouble you with words" subverting their souls. So in Gal 1:6 Paul says...I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Whereas in Acts 15:11 shows the perverting of the gospel itself (because it was by those who believed of the sect of the Pharisees) with the whole ..."except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved". And they responded.... But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Then if you go into Gal 5:1 you can pick up the exact thing they were addressing in the counsel, or what they were adding to the necks of the disciples (which was circumcision and keeping the law of Moses). Which the apostles called the same both tempting God and a yoke (as shown in Acts 15:10) So he says the same to them in Gal 1:5 saying, Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Then he says... Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Then right into Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace (see Acts 15:5 too). All the way down (again) into where he speaks of they which trouble you in Gal 5:10 And he continues, saying I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. (see Gal 1:7 & Acts 15:24) So the same are troubling them.

Now I had posted this before, but I think there in Galations Paul did a great job showing the whole thing together by his choice of words. The yoke, the circumcision, the justification by the law (verses grace) and them which trouble you. Its another gospel (which is not another) though it has Jesus in it (its another Jesus) but it wasn't by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And they were troubled, because the circumcision (by hands) and the law of Moses is presented as a saved issued. They were saying "except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved", and the apostles said they gave no such commandment as they preached by grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth

2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

OSAS'er don't like that one.

This does not have to be wriggled with or twisted or distorted or retranslated or misrepresented IF YOU BELIEVE THE PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH.

Start at 2 Peter 2 and read the whole chapter. Does it seem like a Salvation chapter? Or is it more about false prophets and warnings about really bad carnality?

2 Peter 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

 

[MarcR]

If OSAS doctrine were true, and you could not fall away from the faith, then there would be no Harlot in the book of Revelation. You have to leave your first love in order to play the Harlot.

That would be true if you could demonstrate that she ever had faith.

 

[MarcR]

But Hebrews covers your first question, it is speaking of Born again Christians turning back and losing salvation, that is as clear as a bell unless you ignore it.

Hebrews 6:4-8 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

And yes, believing and faith is the key, but what happens if one turns back and falls away from the faith never to return or repent? That is what the scriptures are referring to as the falling away from the faith, which OSAS denies can happen.

The whole intent is to show that falling away is impossible.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Why are you disparaging believers who hold to Gods goodness and eternal security? You falsely accuse them of promoting the idea that they can or want to sin wantonly. This is a terribly false accusation against precious believers in Christ.

You will not find even one truly born again believer who supports sinning without constraint. What kind of person floats red herrings like this across the forum?

My teaching is to warn against falsely accusing others of that which you cannot stand in yourself.

Tell me what is greater than Gods grace? Your sin? Your will? What is greater than Gods grace?

Works based salvation is false hope not Gods grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This thread is not about works based salvation, though you are not the first, or the only one to try that angle. (keep angling maybe you'll get a bite) LOL

Again this thread is about faith in what the word of God says is true about the falling away from the faith, which OSAS DENIES. = false doctrine.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I don't know what kind of books you are reading to get these fantastic ideas but you would do well to stick in the bible and get your exegesis correct before endeavoring to purpose such ideas about things you obviously do not comprehend.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It's called the Holy Bible, you ought to try reading it sometime. (no pictures though)

Revelation 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I appreciate your warning. I'm sure someone who needed that warning would heed it.

That doesn't make OSAS untrue.

In fact, we are saved by the power of God, not the power of our faith. So, while it may make you upset, someone who may sin in your eyes may have Eternal Salvation in Gods Eyes.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those who believe shall be saved, that means you need to participate in that faith.

 

[Sirk]

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those who believe shall be saved, that means you need to participate in that faith.

Again...works are a symptom of a saved person but works don't do any saving. I suppose when you look at it your way it's about you having some control or say in who is saved or not because YOU are the judge of anothers "works" or lack thereof. How convenient for you. Who are you to determine the status of anothers servant?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Start at 2 Peter 2 and read the whole chapter. Does it seem like a Salvation chapter? Or is it more about false prophets and warnings about really bad carnality?

2 Peter 2:20-22 is talking about those who would fall away from the faith, even some would remain in congregations like today teaching lies and false doctrine like OSAS, giving lip service to God, but living in sin. They are the HYPOCRITES.

Matthew 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 7:6
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

If we compared the language Paul uses in Galations to the Acts situation where those who believed (who went out from them) teaching what the apostles did not. Paul seems to wrap all of it into Galations very nicely.

The yoke of bondage (which is shown in both Acts 15:10 & Gal 5:1) Along with those that trouble you with words (is shown in Acts 15:24 & Gal 1:7, & Gal 5:12). The law of Moses and the circumcision issue (Shown in Acts 15:1 & Gal 5:2) and the grace of the Lord Jesus in contrast to their words (Shown in Acts 15:11 & Gal 5:4) These speak in accord with the same wording. Paul hits the same (point by point) using the same wording surrounding that issue in Galations.

In Gal 1:7 Paul speaks to the same thing as shown in the counsel in Acts, that there are "some that trouble you" (and with words supposedly as by them). These certain ones (which went out) in Acts preached were saying "except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved" thus as James said these "trouble you with words" subverting their souls. So in Gal 1:6 Paul says...I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Whereas in Acts 15:11 shows the perverting of the gospel itself (because it was by those who believed of the sect of the Pharisees) with the whole ..."except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved". And they responded.... But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Then if you go into Gal 5:1 you can pick up the exact thing they were addressing in the counsel, or what they were adding to the necks of the disciples (which was circumcision and keeping the law of Moses). Which the apostles called the same both tempting God and a yoke (as shown in Acts 15:10) So he says the same to them in Gal 1:5 saying, Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Then he says... Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Then right into Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace (see Acts 15:5 too). All the way down (again) into where he speaks of they which trouble you in Gal 5:10 And he continues, saying I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. (see Gal 1:7 & Acts 15:24) So the same are troubling them.

Now I had posted this before, but I think there in Galations Paul did a great job showing the whole thing together by his choice of words. The yoke, the circumcision, the justification by the law (verses grace) and them which trouble you. Its another gospel (which is not another) though it has Jesus in it (its another Jesus) but it wasn't by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And they were troubled, because the circumcision (by hands) and the law of Moses is presented as a saved issued. They were saying "except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved", and the apostles said they gave no such commandment as they preached by grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Good example here, a couple of people on this thread has stated you cannot fall from Gods grace, or from the faith because it is all Gods doing, not yours. BUT the scripture say different...

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[Jeff_56]

Start at 2 Peter 2 and read the whole chapter. Does it seem like a Salvation chapter? Or is it more about false prophets and warnings about really bad carnality?

2 Peter 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

that's a new one to me "really bad" carnality.... when any carnality may keep you from finding the kingdom of heaven, let alone entering....

as the scripture you just posted shows - he delivers the carnal (the unjust) unto the day of judgment TO BE PUNISHED......

remember, the carnal don't get to even SEE the KINGDOM of HEAVEN....

as long as you think being carnal is okay, well, you just found out.... what will happen....

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

That would be true if you could demonstrate that she ever had faith.

I think if you read in the OT about what the Lord said about Israel being His wife, but then playing the Harlot you will get the answer. But even still after all of Israel's disobedience the Lord still pleaded for her to return to Him. He also asked "why will you die?"

 

[DesiredHaven]

Good example here, a couple of people on this thread has stated you cannot fall from Gods grace, or from the faith because it is all Gods doing, not yours. BUT the scripture say different...

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Yes, in the context of falling from grace (even in respects to being justified by the law itself) a couple of verses after that Paul again touches on circumsion and uncircumcision (the issue at hand) in this way saying

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;
but faith which worketh by love.

And the same, in this way in Corinthians

1 Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And both (together) are found this way in Revelation

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Sirk]

that's a new one to me "really bad" carnality.... when any carnality may keep you from finding the kingdom of heaven, let alone entering....

as the scripture you just posted shows - he delivers the carnal (the unjust) unto the day of judgment TO BE PUNISHED......

remember, the carnal don't get to even SEE the KINGDOM of HEAVEN....

as long as you think being carnal is okay, well, you just found out.... what will happen....

You misuse the word carnal. It is referring to someone as immature in their faith and likewise spiritual as someone mature in their faith. Sorry but your theology is still as wrong as it was before your "gotcha" post.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The whole intent is to show that falling away is impossible.

Wow, that's a direct contradiction to what it actually says. Just Wow.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Again...works are a symptom of a saved person but works don't do any saving. I suppose when you look at it your way it's about you having some control or say in who is saved or not because YOU are the judge of anothers "works" or lack thereof. How convenient for you. Who are you to determine the status of anothers servant?

Again this is not a salvation by your own works thread. Though faith without works is dead.

 

[Jeff_56]

Acts 8, Simon became a Christian, fell away by trying to buy the power of the HS yet was told lby Peter he could repent and be restored.
Jesus commanded some of the 7 churches in Asia to repent or be lost. Why the command if it were not possible?

to confuse the carnal minded. they never get it right.

 

[Sirk]

Again this is not a salvation by your own works thread. Though faith without works is dead.

It's a you can lose your salvation thread which is the same thing as a saved by works thread.....really.

 

[Jeff_56]

Wow, that's a direct contradiction to what it actually says. Just Wow.

for some 'reason'? or other yahweh allows many to think that (1) they are saved (until judgment day when they find out they were never saved - HE says HE never knew them) ....
(2) other things

we can't change their minds. Jesus came back from the dead and HE won't change their minds. HE says in HIS WORD "the wicked keep on being wicked. the righteous keep on being righteous".

 

[vic1980]

I hope this helps

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Shalom