OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Utah]

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

That's right, and denying the words of God is also denying the faith.

Straight forward question to all OSAS's:

Are you abominable or are you a work in progress saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ?

Me? I'm the latter, as I suspect you are as well.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Nice.
I was betting all 3 of them would ignore this post.
They can't answer it.
Pride over truth.

Or as one of them would put it.....The " Save Lite , Save Ourselves, Save the Whales, OSAS lite, Bud Light, Marlboro Lite, Night Lite. " way....he has invented. He needs to stick to it.

Let me bump it.......so they can ignore me also.

Sorry if I missed your post, but there has been a lot of em. Any way, the key words there is "whosoever does the will of my Father" is my brother, mother, sister etc. Not all will do His will.

If I recall you had no answer to this: Matthew 12:48-5048 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”Matthew 18:21-2221 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. For this knowledge to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge. A person who rejects this knowledge will be more accountable at the judgment. The latter end is worse than the beginning. The "way of righteousness" and "holy commandment" emphasize the ethical content of the knowledge the false teachers had. They knew what was right and holy, but they deliberately chose to reject it. They had knowledge of salvation, but they lacked that true saving experience with the Lord. Just like in Hebrews 10:39, they had the knowledge of the truth (vs. 26) but chose to draw back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

I don't mind that one at all. Look a little deeper. False teachers are the main subject of the whole chapter. 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Notice that Peter did not mention that those who escaped the "pollutions of the world" were "Christians," "born again" or "saved."

That was a real good effort in trying to misrepresent and explain away the Truth. LOL

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

OSAS'er don't like that one.

This does not have to be wriggled with or twisted or distorted or retranslated or misrepresented IF YOU BELIEVE THE PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH.

 

[MarcR]

No I didn't, I said there is a difference between a stumble and a fall. If a man does not willfully sin, and repents of the sin, and turns to the Lord for forgiveness, the Lord is merciful to forgive, yes.

But if a man after receiving the faith and being born again willfully sin and turn away from following the Lord, and does not repent, he will die in his sins. It's much like here in Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So yes, some will repent and turn back to the Lord, but some will willfully turn away and not repent and shall be lost. But to say none will lose his or her salvation by rejecting the faith, is also to say that there will not be any falling away from the faith as written. This is a lie.

In terms of practical results:

My belief that people who are truly saved do NOT willfully sin; and those who willfully or habitually sin were NEVER saved-- and your belief that such people loose salvation each result in the same people being excluded from heaven.


Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV


Jn 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV


Jn 6:47
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
KJV


These Scriptures clearly say that those who have saving faith have everlasting life now.

How can I have everlasting life today and not have it 100 years from now?

 

[Utah]

Actually, in my many years of discussion on this issue, it is primarily the OSAS proponents who have brought forth the most hate towards those who do not believe as they do. Yes, there a few OSASer's who are nice that I ran into. But most I have talked with are actually very cruel in the way they treat you (When you discuss this topic).

Jason, with a gentle heart I say the following: I am stirred to anger when people shut out the Kingdom against others. Jesus did not die on the Cross so that everyone who believes in Him and is perfect shall be saved, but rather, everyone who believes in Him shall be saved.

I also notice people with your views don't see OSAS folks as people of faith who acknowledge imperfections, but rather, time and again, its accusations of OSAS folks being evil, abominable, defiantly heretical and poster children for everything ungodly. Hyperbole statements to the max.

 

[Sirk]

This does not have to be wriggled with or twisted or distorted or retranslated or misrepresented IF YOU BELIEVE THE PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH.

Ironically enough this passage follows a warning about teachings and teachers such as ya'll.

 

[MarcR]

No I didn't, I said there is a difference between a stumble and a fall. If a man does not willfully sin, and repents of the sin, and turns to the Lord for forgiveness, the Lord is merciful to forgive, yes.

But if a man after receiving the faith and being born again willfully sin and turn away from following the Lord, and does not repent, he will die in his sins. It's much like here in Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So yes, some will repent and turn back to the Lord, but some will willfully turn away and not repent and shall be lost. But to say none will lose his or her salvation by rejecting the faith, is also to say that there will not be any falling away from the faith as written. This is a lie.

If you believe that a stumble results in loss of Salvation, He 6:4-6 says there is no way to get it back.

If you say that a stumble does NOT result in loss of Salvation; we have no argument.

 

[Utah]

Jason, if I had the chance to spend a couple of weeks with you I could point out specific sins in your life, transgressions and carnal thinking so much so that you would have to believe that even you have forsaken the right way. It would not be difficult for me to do. If I could do it so easily, how much more could God do this leaving you trembling with condemnation and great guilt.

My goodness Jason, every man of God had some form of sin in his life and God covered it until he was ready to reveal it to them. All those verses you quoted have nothing to do with refuting OSAS. You have been disillusioned. The greatest self deception we face is when light turns into darkness and how great that darkness becomes. It is a darkness that is confessed as the light and as ministers of righteousness. It has no grace, no mercy and no truth.

Satan can quote the scriptures but there is no truth in for he is a liar from the beginning. If your eye be single your whole body shall be FULL of the light of truth. God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

Brad, this is a wonderful post. This is not meant to kick Jason when he's down, but rather, in focusing solely on the principles at hand, you are spot on correct. Thank you for sharing such insight.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

In terms of practical results:

My belief that people who are truly saved do NOT willfully sin; and those who willfully or habitually sin were NEVER saved-- and your belief that such people loose salvation each result in the same people being excluded from heaven.


Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV


Jn 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV


Jn 6:47
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
KJV


These Scriptures clearly say that those who have saving faith have everlasting life now.

How can I have everlasting life today and not have it 100 years from now?

But Hebrews covers your first question, it is speaking of Born again Christians turning back and losing salvation, that is as clear as a bell unless you ignore it.

Hebrews 6:4-8 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

And yes, believing and faith is the key, but what happens if one turns back and falls away from the faith never to return or repent? That is what the scriptures are referring to as the falling away from the faith, which OSAS denies can happen.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

If you believe that a stumble results in loss of Salvation, He 6:4-6 says there is no way to get it back.

If you say that a stumble does NOT result in loss of Salvation; we have no argument.

Yeah, people can slip up and repent and turn back to God by faith and He will forgive, but some will turn away from the faith and not repent and be lost. But there again OSAS doctrine denies one can fall away, which is contrary to the words of God.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Ironically enough this passage follows a warning about teachings and teachers such as ya'll.

My teaching is warning people to stand fast in the faith, and believe the words of God. This is not evil, or false. OSAS teaches lies, and gives sinners a false sense of security.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

If OSAS doctrine were true, and you could not fall away from the faith, then there would be no Harlot in the book of Revelation. You have to leave your first love in order to play the Harlot.

 

[notuptome]

My teaching is warning people to stand fast in the faith, and believe the words of God. This is not evil, or false. OSAS teaches lies, and gives sinners a false sense of security.

Why are you disparaging believers who hold to Gods goodness and eternal security? You falsely accuse them of promoting the idea that they can or want to sin wantonly. This is a terribly false accusation against precious believers in Christ.

You will not find even one truly born again believer who supports sinning without constraint. What kind of person floats red herrings like this across the forum?

My teaching is to warn against falsely accusing others of that which you cannot stand in yourself.

Tell me what is greater than Gods grace? Your sin? Your will? What is greater than Gods grace?

Works based salvation is false hope not Gods grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

If OSAS doctrine were true, and you could not fall away from the faith, then there would be no Harlot in the book of Revelation. You have to leave your first love in order to play the Harlot.

I don't know what kind of books you are reading to get these fantastic ideas but you would do well to stick in the bible and get your exegesis correct before endeavoring to purpose such ideas about things you obviously do not comprehend.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[prove-all]

Paul called those people who believed that they started their walk by faith, but were made perfect (complete) by works FOOLS...so what does that make one who believes saved by faith, but finished or kept by works?

Fools!

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause
shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca,
shall be in danger of the council:

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.



not glad to see people liking posts that demean our brothers also

 

[Grandpa]

OSAS is based on faith in man-made teachings.

Nope. Its based on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:29 [SUP] [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Well that was pretty easy. It only took 3 verses to show you the Power of God and His Salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause
shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca,
shall be in danger of the council:

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.



not glad to see people liking posts that demean our brothers also

You do read the bible right......That is what Paul writes under inspiration of God's Spirit as found in Galatians chapter 3...O foolish Galatians who hat bewitched thee......they were saying they were saved by faith and then made complete by the works of the flesh......all I did was quote scripture and apply it biblically to those who do the same thing Paul double CURSED by the Spirit of God......so....you shouldn't be so offended!

By the way...your misapplication of the word fool as applied by Jesus does not apply to the use of the word if Galatians......

 

[Grandpa]

My teaching is warning people to stand fast in the faith, and believe the words of God. This is not evil, or false. OSAS teaches lies, and gives sinners a false sense of security.

I appreciate your warning. I'm sure someone who needed that warning would heed it.

That doesn't make OSAS untrue.

In fact, we are saved by the power of God, not the power of our faith. So, while it may make you upset, someone who may sin in your eyes may have Eternal Salvation in Gods Eyes.

 

[Grandpa]

Straight forward question to all OSAS's:

Are you abominable or are you a work in progress saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ?

Me? I'm the latter, as I suspect you are as well.

Another question.

What if the Lord says "As your faith is, so be it unto you."

What side of the (supposed) Salvation argument would you want to be on in that case? Would you go to "I don't know land" or would you go directly to Eternal Salvation?