OSAS= House Built on Sand

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Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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Wait wait wait..you just said its not good for a person to descern scriptire they should go to the church etc..now YOU SAY YOU have descernment over someone elses spiritual theology? You comtradicted yourself..how can YOU descern spiritual theology if you yourself have to go to the CHURCH for descernmemt in your OWN life?
That's exactly what I'm saying, a true believer knows that he doesn't know. A false believer thinks he knows it all and he thinks he can read the Bible and arrive at the right interpretation, there are thousands of interpretations so it's a dangerous mine field.

I have been given the gift of discernment enough to ask my pastor what certain scriptures mean, once I understand them I can correct others who don't. I never run with a wrong view, I don't make any claims which have not been explained and proven to be Biblically correct.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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This is the problem with private interpretation of scripture, you all come up with all kinds of crazy ideas.
So you're saying it's a "crazy idea" to turn your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ as shown in 2 Cor 3:16?

2 Corinthians 3:15-16 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.




Slayer said:
You need to find a faithful Shepherd to explain what the scriptures all mean.
My "faithful Shepherd" sits at the right hand of God:

Ephesians 1:

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church



You might want to ask your "pastor" about those verses in Ephesians 1 because when you read, you'll find:

Vs 17 – God gives to us the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him

Vs 22 – God has placed all things under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ and gave Him to be head over all things to the church.

However, you would rather follow your "pastor" and you do not follow Him, even though God tells us that is Who we are to follow.

Until you turn your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ and follow Him, you will continue to have the vail on your heart.




Slayer said:
This is why 95% of Christians are opposed to each other
Actually, God tells us that we have fellowship with Him and with His son, Jesus Christ, and if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we will have fellowship with each other:

1 John 1:

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.



7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



So until you start to walk in the light, as He is in the light, you'll be floundering on your own ...



Slayer said:
God wrote the Bible in such a way that it can only be interpreted by those whom He gave the gift of discernment
Please provide chapter and verse for this statement. :sneaky:


 
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Wait wait wait..you just said its not good for a person to descern scriptire they should go to the church etc..now YOU SAY YOU have descernment over someone elses spiritual theology? You comtradicted yourself..how can YOU descern spiritual theology if you yourself have to go to the CHURCH for descernmemt in your OWN life?
I doubt he will acknowledge his contradiction. He'll come back with some wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14). Praise God for His faithful children who speak the truth in love so that we may grow up into Him in all things, which is the Head, even Christ (Eph 4:15).


 
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This is the funny thing about calvinism. They love to debate, yet debating is meaningless in their worldview. They dont believe in free will, yet its a problem when people reject calvinism, as if they had a choice in the matter.
"they dont believe in free will" and don't realize that by their own free will they reject Scripture. try explaining that to them … :eek:

 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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So you're saying it's a "crazy idea" to turn your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ as shown in 2 Cor 3:16?

2 Corinthians 3:15-16 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.





My "faithful Shepherd" sits at the right hand of God:

Ephesians 1:

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church


You might want to ask your "pastor" about those verses in Ephesians 1 because when you read, you'll find:

Vs 17 – God gives to us the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him

Vs 22 – God has placed all things under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ and gave Him to be head over all things to the church.

However, you would rather follow your "pastor" and you do not follow Him, even though God tells us that is Who we are to follow.

Until you turn your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ and follow Him, you will continue to have the vail on your heart.





Actually, God tells us that we have fellowship with Him and with His son, Jesus Christ, and if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we will have fellowship with each other:

1 John 1:

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.



7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


So until you start to walk in the light, as He is in the light, you'll be floundering on your own ...




Please provide chapter and verse for this statement. :sneaky:
I will provide a bunch of verses later, I have to go now but don't be deceived and rely on your own wisdom do discern scripture. Satan will deceive you every single time and you will always walk away with the wrong view. The Bible was only written for Gods Shepherds to teach it to His sheep.

It's very dangerous for a sheep to go rouge, it will quickly be devoured so find yourself a trustworthy Shepherd to protect you.
I will give you all the relevant scriptures later, gotta go now bye!
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I will provide a bunch of verses later
Please provide only those verses which support your claim:

God wrote the Bible in such a way that it can only be interpreted by those whom He gave the gift of discernment

I'm not interested in your cut/paste from websites which have nothing to do with the issue under discussion.


 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I will provide a bunch of verses later,
When I started out addressing one verse/passage at a time from your list, I never really got an adequate response from you... so I quit addressing each of those, because it didn't seem you "heard" anyway. :)


Another poster addressed THIS ^ also, and it appears you didn't "hear" her either. :D
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Don't fool yourself that you have the gift of discernment which is only given to Shepherds, sheep need to find a faithful Shepherd to lead them. So sheep need to pray that God will place them in a safe flock, or they will become one of the millions of victims burning in hell because they tried to take on the hungry lion on their own.
Your argument is self-defeating, you know, since a person without discernment would have no way of knowing whether the so-called faithful shepherd they listen to is even telling the truth. You know how I know that? I have discernment :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Speaking of "discernment," Philippians 1:9-10 [ylt] says,

"and this I pray, that your love yet more and more may abound in full knowledge, and all judgment/discernment, for your proving the things that differ, that ye may be pure and offenceless -- to a ['a' not in Grk text] day of Christ"



One thing I notice with both Calvinism AND Arminianism, is that they each blur together many passages and state they are to/for/about [that is, misapplying them to] "the Church which is His body" that are indeed not to/for/about "the Church which is His body." And this blurring causes each (Calvinism & Arminianism) to come up with explanations which actually change the Word of God, in places, in order for them (in their way of thinking) to make sense and correlate/mesh/not-contradict (they see no other way to figure it out, but to [wrongly] do so).

The problem is rooted in not grasping the real position [and identification] of "the Church which is His body"--its calling, its standing, its hopes, its privileges (as distinct from that of all other saints of all OTHER time periods: OT saints, Trib saints, MK saints).
 

Seohce

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Jul 15, 2016
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Being Submissive/ Faithful/Obedient To Him= Accurate

Just Believe/Accept Him as Saviour= Bad Translation in English

(Tranlations are mine from the Greek.
*All 41 occurrences of the Greek phrase
πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν
are listed below in context)​

Part I
Mat 18:6 ὅς δ᾿ ἂν σκανδαλίσῃ ἕνα τῶν μικρῶν τούτων τῶν πιστευόντων εἰς ἐμέ, συμφέρει αὐτῷ ἵνα κρεμασθῇ μύλος ὀνικὸς εἰς τὸν τράχηλον αὐτοῦ καὶ καταποντισθῇ ἐν τῷ πελάγει τῆς θαλάσσης.
Mat 18:6 “Whoever should cause one of these little ones who are continually submissive and faithful to me to sin, it is better for him that a millstone of a donkey be tied around his neck and he be submerged in the depth of the open sea.” (repeated in Mk 9:42)

Joh 1:12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα Θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ,
Joh 1:12 As many people that received him, he gave to them the privilege to become children of God—to the ones that are continually submissive and obedient to his authority.

Joh 2:11 Ταύτην ἐποίησε ἀρχὴν τῶν σημείων ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐν Κανὰ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐφανέρωσε τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτὸν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miraculous signs Yahshua performed in Cana of Galilee and he manifested his splendor. And his disciples were submissive to him.

Joh 2:23 ῾Ως δὲ ἦν τοῖς ῾Ιεροσολύμοις ἐν τῷ πάσχα ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ, πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, θεωροῦντες αὐτοῦ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐποίει.
Joh 2:23 While he was in Jerusalem during the festival of the Passover, many people were submissive to his authority as they were seeing the miracles that he did.

Joh 3:14 καὶ καθὼς Μωϋσῆς ὕψωσε τὸν ὄφιν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, οὕτως ὑψωθῆναι δεῖ τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
Joh 3:15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Joh 3:16 οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Jn 3:14-16 “And in the same way that Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, it is necessary for the Son of Humanity likewise to be lifted up, in order that everyone who is continually faithful and submissive to him should not be destroyed, but instead, possess age-abiding Life. Because God in this manner was lovingly-devoted to the cosmos: to the point that he gave his one-of-a-kind son, in order that every person who is constantly submissive and obedient to him might not be destroyed, but instead possess age-abiding Life.”

Joh 3:18 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν οὐ κρίνεται, ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων ἤδη κέκριται, ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ μονογενοῦς Υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ.
Joh 3:18 “The one who is obedient to him is not judged; but the one who is not faithful is already judged, because he has not been submissive to the authority of the unique-in-kind son of God.

Joh 3:36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν Υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ Υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλ᾿ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν.
Joh 3:36 The person who is submissively being obedient to the son possesses age-abiding Life; but the person who is being disobedient to the son will not see Life. Instead, the wrath of God is remaining on top of him.

Joh 4:39 ᾿Εκ δὲ τῆς πόλεως ἐκείνης πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτὸν τῶν Σαμαριτῶν διὰ τὸν λόγον τῆς γυναικὸς, μαρτυρούσης ὅτι εἶπέ μοι πάντα ὅσα ἐποίησα.
Joh 4:39 Many people of the Samaritans from that city became faithful to him on account of the statement of the woman who testified, “He told me everything that I have done!”

Joh 6:29 ἀπεκρίθη ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· τοῦτό ἐστι τὸ ἔργον τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἵνα πιστεύσητε εἰς ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος.
Joh 6:29 Yahshua answered and told them, “This is the 'work of God': that you should be submissive and faithful to the person that he sent!

Joh 6:35 εἶπε δὲ αὐτοῖς ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος τῆς ζωῆς· ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρός ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ, καὶ ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ διψήσει πώποτε.
Joh 6:35 Yahshua told them, “I am Life's Bread. The person constantly approaching me will never be hungry, and the person being consistantly submissive and faithful to me will not ever be thirsty.”

Joh 6:40 τοῦτο δὲ ἐστι τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πέμψαντός με, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐγὼ τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.
Joh 6:40 “This is the intention of the one who sent me: in order that everyone who is constantly looking to the son, and being always submissive and faithful to him, may have age-abiding Life. And I will resurrect him in the Last Day.”

(Part II next)
OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)



SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)



OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:



Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.



JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.



THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.



JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)



WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?



WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)



IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?



JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.



Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.



Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?



GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )



Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?



John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.



2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.



DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)



NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?



Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.



ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?



DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?



Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.



James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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We mustn't forget what Jesus said in John 16:12 :

"12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."



[the Scriptures given after His death/resurrection, 1Cor2:10,16b]
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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All of that sounds OK, but it doesn't deal with the issue at hand. I said we have lost sheep running around being devoured by the hungry lion because they rebelled against God's design. God ordained certain Shepherds to lead His sheep, you're trying to tell me that every sheep should rebel and leave the safety of the flock.

Don't fool yourself that you have the gift of discernment which is only given to Shepherds, sheep need to find a faithful Shepherd to lead them. So sheep need to pray that God will place them in a safe flock, or they will become one of the millions of victims burning in hell because they tried to take on the hungry lion on their own.
Jesus is THE Shepherd. Can you give me an example of a good shepherd that you described where the sheep would be safe?
You stated earlier that we were saved before the world was created and salvation has nothing to do with us, so there really is no danger in your view of anyone being devoured by satan for leaving the flock. The saved are already saved and the unsaved can never be.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
It's very dangerous for a sheep to go rouge,
Yes I agree, rouge can be way too dramatic and gauche................I prefer lighter tones myself!


1536803206273.jpeg

At least you still make me chuckle on occasion, sorry if your aiming for "serious discussion" it ain't happening for me anymore.

The word is rogue btw.....
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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Please provide only those verses which support your claim:




I'm not interested in your cut/paste from websites which have nothing to do with the issue under discussion.
John 7:34 Ye shall seek me and shall not find me, and where I am thither ye cannot come. That's just one, I can give you so many but I'm surprised at just how little you know and how much I need to educate you of the basics. As I suggested before, seek ye a Shepherd to teach you. I don't have the time to educate you on the basics.

Mathew 13:13 describes you perfectly:
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

As I said I can list you tons of verses but you are not worthy of my free education so I will just leave you to wallow in those two for now(n)
 

Slayer

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Your argument is self-defeating, you know, since a person without discernment would have no way of knowing whether the so-called faithful shepherd they listen to is even telling the truth. You know how I know that? I have discernment :)
You are deceived, Satan has convinced you that you have discernment but you have clearly demonstrated that you are lost and confused. Your theology is completely messed up, you believe in a man made gospel which is not in the Bible. It's painfully obvious that you have fallen victim to the doctrine of Demons.

I can always tell who the true believers are and I stake my life on the fact that you are not, because I have read what you believe and it's contrary to Gods Word so I'm absolutely sure you are deceived. You have rejected the truth and embraced Satan's lie, just as Eve did in the garden.

You're not alone, most of those who call themselves Christian have apostatized and they have fallen away from the Church just as Christ predicted would happen in the last days. You have embraced the perverted false gospel, you have rejected the only means of salvation so you are without excuse.
 

Slayer

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Jesus is THE Shepherd. Can you give me an example of a good shepherd that you described where the sheep would be safe?
You stated earlier that we were saved before the world was created and salvation has nothing to do with us, so there really is no danger in your view of anyone being devoured by satan for leaving the flock. The saved are already saved and the unsaved can never be.
Saved Saints of God will instinctively find a faithful Shepherd, God programmed them to do so. Our salvation is never threatened, we don't look for a Shepherd to be saved. We look for one to teach us how to glorify God most effectively and they keep us from being troubled by the doctrines of Demons.

Every single one of us Saints was guaranteed to be saved before the world was made, we never do anything to effect our salvation. We do all things as a result of our salvation, we do good works because we have good dwelling in us. You do wicked things if you have wickedness dwelling in you, you act out what is in you and that's how we know who is who.

You guys like to twist things around to mean the opposite of the truth, that's exactly what Satan always does. This leads me to believe the many of you have fallen victim to the doctrines of Demons, I pray for you people all the time.
 

Slayer

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You said you knew all there was to know about God... :rolleyes:
That's right God told us everything He wanted us to know about Him. Of' course there's a lot more to God, but He doesn't want us to know any more than He told us because it would blow your silly little mind:mad: