OSAS= House Built on Sand

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R

Ralph-

Guest
I see you are still working to keep yourself saved.
It is sad that you do not have enough faith in Jesus to keep you. You just have to help.
Its all about you.
Who told you believing was a work of the damnable works gospel? Do you have chapter and verse for that?
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I'm saying you can not be born again over and over again. God does not allow Christ to be put to open shame by allowing the formerly born again person to be saved by the cross again.
In agreement.





Ralph said:
Once he turns the ex-believer over to his unbelief, that's it, it's over.
Heb 6:4-6 does not state God "turns the ex-believer over to his unbelief".





Ralph said:
No opportunity to be renewed to repentance again will be opened for them.
No opportunity to be born again (renewed to repentance again) because to be born again is a one-time "repentance to salvation".


However, God allows repentance from sin - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Heb 6:4-6 does not state God "turns the ex-believer over to his unbelief".
It says the believer who has fallen away can not repent. Believer, turned unbeliever, can not repent. God doesn't allow Christ to be put to open shame like that.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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As you can see, I posted the two parables that are the same.
According to you, they are the same.

However, according to Scripture they are similar parables, spoken in different settings, to address different issues Jesus wanted to deal with and explain to those present.

There are times when the parables recorded in the gospels are the same and there are times when they are not the same.

For the believer to not distinguish the difference is not beneficial to him or herself.




justpassinthrough said:
The parable of the lost sheep.

The context is clear.

The sheep must be persuaded to repent or remain lost.

12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7
And you believe the context in Matt 18 is the same the context in Luke 15?

The context in Matt is that the disciples asked Jesus "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" and Jesus responded to their question in parables.

The context in Luke is that the pharisees and scribes secluded themselves from publicans and sinners and then murmured when Jesus received publicans and sinners and ate with them and Jesus pointed out their error in parables.

So, you believe Jesus needs to speak in parables in order for anyone to understand that sinners need to repent? Seriously?

One does not need to unravel a parable in order to understand that sinners need to repent.

The similarities in the parables are a sheep is lost and when found there is great rejoicing.

The dissimilarity in the parables is that in Matt, there appears to be uncertainty whether the sheep is found [if so be that he find it] whereas in Luke 15:5, the sheep is found, laid on the shoulder of the shepherd and brought back.

The facts is, Jesus did not tell both groups the same parables because the issues He dealt with were not the same. And the two parables that sounded identical to you are really not identical. But you can continue to sweep that truth under the carpet and believe Jesus needs to speak in parables in order for us to understand that sinners need to repent. :rolleyes:
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
Who told you believing was a work of the damnable works gospel? Do you have chapter and verse for that?
You have said time and time again that YOU keep yourself saved because YOU keep believing.
YOU are trusting in YOURSELF. Deny it all you want, that is works. It is YOUR doing.
You do not trust Christ, YOU trust YOU.
My soul is in Jesus hand, and no one can take it from Him, not even me.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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I wish you folks would quit projecting your beliefs onto Ralph. He's not saying that salvation is sustained by belief (as if it would vanish if we fail to believe for one second), but that salvation can't be received and consummated apart from faith. It is a lifelong process. That's Christianity 101. Duh. Let's move on.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
You have said time and time again that YOU keep yourself saved because YOU keep believing.
Where is this passage that says the works gospel is defined as you doing anything, including believing, to be saved? Just post the chapter and verse. I'll look it up myself. Promise.



YOU are trusting in YOURSELF. Deny it all you want, that is works. It is YOUR doing.
Who does your believing for you?


You do not trust Christ, YOU trust YOU.
Trusting in Christ is called 'believing'.
You knew this, right?
Believing is how you trust Christ. Yet you say that is me trusting in myself because I'm doing something to be saved.


My soul is in Jesus hand, and no one can take it from Him, not even me.
Why can't you stop believing, because someone else is doing your believing for you?
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
Where is this passage that says the works gospel is defined as you doing anything, including believing, to be saved? Just post the chapter and verse. I'll look it up myself. Promise.




Who does your believing for you?



Trusting in Christ is called 'believing'.
You knew this, right?
Believing is how you trust Christ. Yet you say that is me trusting in myself because I'm doing something to be saved.


Why can't you stop believing, because someone else is doing your believing for you?
In July, 1962, Jesus gave the faith to trust Him as my Savior. (I believed)
It was all His doing.
I received the gift of eternal life.
At that moment my soul was placed in His hand.
No man can take my soul from His hand. He will not take the gift back.
You teach that YOU must keep believing or He will cast you out, He will take the gift of eternal life back.
I have faith that Jesus will keep his promise.
YOU have faith in YOURSELF. YOU are keeping yourself saved by continuing to believe.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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According to you, they are the same.

However, according to Scripture they are similar parables, spoken in different settings, to address different issues Jesus wanted to deal with and explain to those present.

There are times when the parables recorded in the gospels are the same and there are times when they are not the same.

For the believer to not distinguish the difference is not beneficial to him or herself.

Same parable, recorded by two different disciples that together brings out the fullness of Jesus teaching.


  • if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.


12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14

  • Look at the context of the parable in Matthew.
  • Look how Jesus continues to explain what to do if a brother won’t listen.

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


  • If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  • And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.
  • But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


Likewise Luke records the same parable, in which the outcome is the same: If the person repents, he will be reconciled back to God.

If not, he will remain lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


  • “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



Here is another example of the same parable recorded by Luke and Matthew, who use different wording to express the same truth of the parable of the sower: The ones on the rock




But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21



Both Matthew and Luke record the same parable, but use different wording to express the same truth.





JPT
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Where is this passage that says the works gospel is defined as you doing anything, including believing, to be saved? Just post the chapter and verse. I'll look it up myself. Promise.




Who does your believing for you?



Trusting in Christ is called 'believing'.
You knew this, right?
Believing is how you trust Christ. Yet you say that is me trusting in myself because I'm doing something to be saved.


Why can't you stop believing, because someone else is doing your believing for you?

So you have to trust Jesus in turn He will keep you saved.

I think this also reflects very badly on Jesus.:cautious:

So there is payment then for your trust over time ...no?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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In July, 1962, Jesus gave the faith to trust Him as my Savior. (I believed)
It was all His doing.
I received the gift of eternal life.
At that moment my soul was placed in His hand.
No man can take my soul from His hand. He will not take the gift back.
You teach that YOU must keep believing or He will cast you out, He will take the gift of eternal life back.
I have faith that Jesus will keep his promise.
YOU have faith in YOURSELF. YOU are keeping yourself saved by continuing to believe.
The condition for being saved is to believe.

The faith you received from Him is the substance of the salvation you are hoping for.


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


The salvation of your soul comes at the end of your faith; the end result of your faith.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


  • receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.


JPT
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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We need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. I have studied the book of Job and I’m familiar enough with all Scripture to clearly understand the plan of salvation and that man is not sinless and perfect.
m...,
That comment has nothing to do do with the point to be garnered from the study of the book of Job related to obedience.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Just in case you are thinking of using Job 1:1, which reads, "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil" to further promote your agenda, you need to realize that the word "perfect" here does not mean that Job was sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time.........
m...,
Not hardly..that would not support my point but why are you avoiding that which will;.....Job 2; 3.....

" And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause".

Never said Job was perfect...I said He was a perfect servant..per G-d.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I see you are still working to keep yourself saved.
It is sad that you do not have enough faith in Jesus to keep you. You just have to help.
Its all about you.
Exactly....Perfect tense verbs tell me all.I need to know and they tell me plainly that Ralph's dogma is false and nothing more than "Cainlology" repackaged....!!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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NOSAS/works salvationist/lost salvationist, i think, has another gospel/ has another Jesus. For their gospel cannot save for eternity and their Jesus cannot save/ keep save for eternity. They put pedestal on themselves not what Christ did nor the power of God. On the reverse the strange teaching is built on the sinking sand.

God bless
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Believer, turned unbeliever, can not repent. God doesn't allow Christ to be put to open shame like that.
The believer does not turn into an unbeliever. The believer is still born again. He or she is no longer walking in light of who he or she is in Christ Jesus, but that does not mean he or she is not born again.

What happens to the "new man" within the born again one under your scenario?

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


 
Mar 23, 2016
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Same parable, recorded by two different disciples that together brings out the fullness of Jesus teaching.
  • if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14
  • Look at the context of the parable in Matthew.
  • Look how Jesus continues to explain what to do if a brother won’t listen.
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
  • If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  • And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.
  • But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Likewise Luke records the same parable, in which the outcome is the same: If the person repents, he will be reconciled back to God.

If not, he will remain lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
  • “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Here is another example of the same parable recorded by Luke and Matthew, who use different wording to express the same truth of the parable of the sower: The ones on the rock

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21
So now, rather than admit that the parables in Luke 15 are spoken in different context than the parables of Matt 18, you want to examine more parables in order to cover up the fact that you are mashing together what Jesus taught His disciples in Matt 18 and the reproof of the pharisees and scribes of Luke 15?

Is there no end to your obfuscation?

In Matt 18, Christ summarizes by giving encouragement to His disciples for where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them (vs 20). Then Peter asked another question about forgiveness, which He answers.

In Luke 16, Christ summarizes by rebuking the pharisees and scribes ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God (vs 15).





justpassinthrough said:
Both Matthew and Luke record the same parable, but use different wording to express the same truth.
The parable of the lost sheep in Matt 18 is not the same as the parable of the lost sheep in Luke 15.

In Luke 15, there is no question but that the shepherd finds the sheep, lays it on his shoulder, and carries it back to the fold.

In Matt 18, there is ambiguity And if so be that he find it (vs 13) ... leaving a question as to whether the sheep was found or not. You tried to use this as proof that the woman who lost the coin in Luke 15 might not have found the coin before someone else took it and spent it (see your post #878).

You sure did think the parables were different when you submitted that response.

Now you're saying they're the same ... :sneaky:


 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The salvation of your soul comes at the end of your faith; the end result of your faith.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9
  • receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
JPT
There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Which tense do you believe is being discussed in 1 Peter 1:9?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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m...,
Not hardly..that would not support my point but why are you avoiding that which will;.....Job 2; 3.....

" And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause".

Never said Job was perfect...I said He was a perfect servant..per G-d.
I'm not avoiding anything. So you never said that Job was perfect, but you say he was a perfect servant? What's the difference? :unsure: