OSAS= House Built on Sand

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Where in Hebrews 6 does it say anything that makes it so that the barren fields can only be people who never believed and can't be people who fell away into the unfruitfulness of unbelief?
Where does it say otherwise? Verse 9 settles the issue for me.

In fact, the author of Hebrews will now spend the rest of the letter explaining why these saved believers should stick with Christ and not abandon their faith in him.
Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition (Hebrews 10:39). Again, that settles the issue for me, but you are free to believe otherwise. It's obvious that we are not going to change each others mind.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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originally posted by mailmandan

"Regardless of your cynical, biased views, Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and there is sin unto physical death and NONE OF US ARE WORTHY OF GOD'S GRACE so get off your high horse and stop being so quick to condemn.

I already throughly explained these passages of scripture to you in post #1,543, but apparently you must have ignored it." :cautious:[/QUOTE]
YOU SEEM TO NEVER RUN OUT OF INTERPRETATIONS AND ARGUMENTS. I WON'T GET UPSET AS LONG AS YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURES PROPERLY TO BACK UP YOUR STANCE.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is FALSELY CALLED KNOWLEDGE, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.

IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?

WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)

...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)

...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)

32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”

JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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48
Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. :)

I do not associate with anyone who "claims" to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. I do not even eat with such people either. ;)
YOU SHOULDNT;


OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)



SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)



OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:



Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.



JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.



THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.



JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)



WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?



WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)



IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?



JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.



Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.



Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?



GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )



Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?



John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.



2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.



DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)



NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?



Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.



ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?



DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?



Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.



James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,028
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originally posted by mailmandan

"Regardless of your cynical, biased views, Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and there is sin unto physical death and NONE OF US ARE WORTHY OF GOD'S GRACE so get off your high horse and stop being so quick to condemn.

I already throughly explained these passages of scripture to you in post #1,543, but apparently you must have ignored it." :cautious:
YOU SEEM TO NEVER RUN OUT OF INTERPRETATIONS AND ARGUMENTS. I WON'T GET UPSET AS LONG AS YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURES PROPERLY TO BACK UP YOUR STANCE.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is FALSELY CALLED KNOWLEDGE, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.

IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?

WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)

...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)

...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)

32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”

JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.[/QUOTE] More works salvation/lose salvation confusion. I will be more than happy to explain these verses to you later. Right now I am on my way to work.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,028
9,753
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YOU SEEM TO NEVER RUN OUT OF INTERPRETATIONS AND ARGUMENTS. I WON'T GET UPSET AS LONG AS YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURES PROPERLY TO BACK UP YOUR STANCE.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is FALSELY CALLED KNOWLEDGE, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.

IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?

WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)

...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)

...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)

32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”

JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
More works salvation/lose salvation confusion. I will be more than happy to explain these verses to you later. Right now I am on my way to work.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
More works salvation/lose salvation confusion. I will be more than happy to explain these verses to you later. Right now I am on my way to work.
JUST REMEMBER;

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

romans 3:3-4
What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness?4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
8,769
5,150
113
It is a deal to cheat death that would proclaim Gods hands are tied in regards to subsequent unbelief. God saved Israel but nevertheless became displeased at their subsequent unbelief and mistrust and refused to let them enter the rest He had prepared for them.

However, it is a race of trust and we stumble sometimes. But we get up and begin to race/trust again, not looking behind us where we stumbled but looking ahead, because we know His mercies begin anew every morning.

A man is wrong to tell anyone that the moment they stumble in trust, they are lost. A man is also wrong to tell anyone that although they were saved through trust, they don't have to keep trusting.

We are saved by the kindness of God through this gift of trust. There is nothing more precious that we have than this trust. We can't win our race without it. We must guard our hearts and keep the trust and keep growing in trust. The world, the flesh and the devil try to trip us by trying to stop us running by making us stop trusting and by filling us with mistrust.

At the same time, God puts tests of our trust before us with the circumstances He places us in. He doesn't do it to trip us but to make evident where dross still remains SO THAT we will cry to Him for what we see we lack.

There are many tricky things satan does. Many ways he twists it up and causes us to stumble in trust. Why aren't we spending our time discussing how he has hit us and how God brought us victory in those places, so that we can help build up each others trust? What if we could help someone else to not have as long a time of misery in one of the pits he got us in by sharing what he twisted and how he abused our minds to think something wrongly about God?

Why waste time arguing incessantly over whether or not we must keep trusting and growing in trust? Of course we must! It's what the race IS!
So many times we think it is ALL about Salvation. Obviously NOTHING else matters if we don't have that, but many times Scripture is meant to convey things that ACCOMPANY Salvation.
Let's remember that God ALSO refused to let Moses go into the Promised land.

Now as to our situation and how it relates to the children of Israel, I would say that I haven't found where they, UNLIKE US, are said to be filled AND SEALED with the Holy Spirit.

What is unbelief? Unbelief in what? That there is a God? You think the Jews no longer believed there was a God? That He became flesh, was crucified and died for our sins and rose again to life? There are a billion things we ALL could be doing to further the Kingdom but can't because of OUR unbelief. Everything from selling our last possession and heading out to preach the Gospel 24/7 to physically healing every person on Earth, to actually moving a mountain. OUR unbelief prevents us from doing those things.

No sister. The difference is we were drawn to Him, heard the Gospel, Believed, and were born again. We are NOW Children of God! NOT children of Israel, or Shem, Ham, and Japheth, or... Adam. Sealed with His Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption!

If we COULD lose our salvation by a lack of following or unbelief (in what?) we DEFINITELY WOULD lose our salvation. The race we run has nothing to do with OUR salvation, but rather we race to spread the Gospel to the World, or maybe just a loved one, that needs THEIR salvation.

This is not about tying God's Hands. And not about unbelief. It is about BELIEF. Belief that our Heavenly Father will NEVER leave NOR forsake His Children.
It may be VERY necessary that some of His may have to go through much trouble and correction before that revelation comes to them, as I did.

I pray that He will bless you with a trust and faith that never wavers. But know that if it does, HIS NEVER DOES!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,479
2,291
113
So many times we think it is ALL about Salvation. Obviously NOTHING else matters if we don't have that, but many times Scripture is meant to convey things that ACCOMPANY Salvation.
Let's remember that God ALSO refused to let Moses go into the Promised land.

Now as to our situation and how it relates to the children of Israel, I would say that I haven't found where they, UNLIKE US, are said to be filled AND SEALED with the Holy Spirit.

What is unbelief? Unbelief in what? That there is a God? You think the Jews no longer believed there was a God? That He became flesh, was crucified and died for our sins and rose again to life? There are a billion things we ALL could be doing to further the Kingdom but can't because of OUR unbelief. Everything from selling our last possession and heading out to preach the Gospel 24/7 to physically healing every person on Earth, to actually moving a mountain. OUR unbelief prevents us from doing those things.

No sister. The difference is we were drawn to Him, heard the Gospel, Believed, and were born again. We are NOW Children of God! NOT children of Israel, or Shem, Ham, and Japheth, or... Adam. Sealed with His Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption!

If we COULD lose our salvation by a lack of following or unbelief (in what?) we DEFINITELY WOULD lose our salvation. The race we run has nothing to do with OUR salvation, but rather we race to spread the Gospel to the World, or maybe just a loved one, that needs THEIR salvation.

This is not about tying God's Hands. And not about unbelief. It is about BELIEF. Belief that our Heavenly Father will NEVER leave NOR forsake His Children.
It may be VERY necessary that some of His may have to go through much trouble and correction before that revelation comes to them, as I did.

I pray that He will bless you with a trust and faith that never wavers. But know that if it does, HIS NEVER DOES!
There is no doubt that Israel does not believe that God became flesh and died on the cross for their sins. They do not believe that God rose again from the dead. If they believed they would be saved.

It is quite true that God paid a very dear price to redeem sinful men. It is quite true that God will not allow His precious redeemed children to be take away from Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Not true that "we no longer have eternal life in us, any longer".

I'm sure you consider yourself to be born again. Are you 100% perfect ALL THE TIME?

Or do you sometimes "fall back" to your old habit patterns?

Just because a believer is born again does not mean he or she never sins. Read Rom 7 to understand the dilemma we face.

And again, the way in which we overcome the lusts of our flesh is in putting on the Lord Jesus Christ as Rom 13:14 tells us But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Once we find ourselves living in light of who we were in Adam, we are instructed to put off the old man and put on the new man just as instructed in Eph 4:24, Col 3:10.

Nobody is perfect, which is why we have the ability to confess our sin, and be forgiven.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9



If we sin against our brother, we can ask forgiveness and repent, and be forgiven by God.


If the one we sinned against, does not forgiven but hold unforgiveness and begins to hate, then he no longer has eternal life in him.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


  • Whoever hates his brother


No way around this scripture.


What ever the circumstance, if a brother in the Lord hates his brother, he no longer has eternal life abiding in him.



Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 32-35



So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Justification is a sovereign work of God.

Justification requires our obedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


The work Abraham did was to obey God and offer his son Isaac on the altar.





JPT
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Justification requires our obedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


The work Abraham did was to obey God and offer his son Isaac on the altar.





JPT
total lie. Romans 3- Paul clearly says in verse 24 that we are justified freely by the grace of God through Christ.

anyone new to site, or visiting, pay no attention to this person's lies and deceit, they have 1st grade level Bible knowledge, or they are willfully being dishonest, but either way, ignore this person.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Nobody is perfect, which is why we have the ability to confess our sin, and be forgiven.
If a born again believer sins and then dies before he or she confesses his or her sin, is that person cast into the lake of fire?

It appears to me that is what you are saying.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Justification requires our obedience.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The work Abraham did was to obey God and offer his son Isaac on the altar.
JPT
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

So James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
 

Slayer

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You don't seem to understand the difference between sinning in a rejection of Christ, and sinning in the struggles of growing up within your faith in Christ. If you die in unbelief you will be lost. If you die believing and trusting in Christ for forgiveness, you are saved and will not be lost despite your struggle with sin.

God is faithful to keep on forgiving us if we keep on believing in the forgiveness of God. If we are in unbelief we can only be saved if we come back to faith in Christ. Then he will forgive us and we will be saved.
I struggle to understand what made me go back into the world and live as a heathen after I heard the Gospel and believed it and made a commitment to give my life to serving the Lord.

I lived a s a faithful Christian for a few years, then I turned my back on my faith and gave myself to serving the lusts of the flesh, then repenting and coming back to the Lord and then going back to serving sin over and over and over again.

This tug of war continued for many years and I got my sinful fill of everything this world has to offer, then after sinning to my hearts content I came back to the Lord and He forgave me for the seven times seventieth time. I feel unworthy to receive forgiveness because I only came back to the Lord after I had exhausted every lust I had and still felt empty in the end.

The only thing I can conclude is that God chose to save me for some reason I don't understand. I know others who done exactly the same thing and God left them in their sin and they will go to the grave in their sin and unbelief, unless God works a miracle in their lives.

This is why I believe in predestination and election, God allowed me to indulge in everything this world has to offer then He saved me. While others haven't sinned half as much and they remain lost, just as I would have if God didn't draw me back to Himself.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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2 Corinthians 7:1 makes it clear that we can be defiled in spirit:

"let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Gnosticism is where this idea of the spirit not being able to be defiled and, therefore, always saved despite what we think or do or believe, comes from.

John says in the verse you quoted (1 John 3:9) that the born again person does not live in habitual sin, like the not born again person does. That doesn't mean we are incapable of going back to unbelief (at least two people in this thread will testify to that). It means as long as you're born again through a continuing trust in the forgiveness of Christ you will not be condemned to the never ending slavery of habitual sin.

Born again people grow up into Christ in a new life of holiness and are saved. They do not languish in their old lives like before they were saved and are lost. They will struggle with sin, that's for sure, but they will ultimately not remain in it. So stay born again through a continuing faith and trust in Christ.
"So stay born again". Hmm.

Thanks for your thoughts, Ralph.

IMO, I believe you are reading this verse and thinking a bit too... independently.

By that I mean, well, take a look at the wider context wherein this verse is found:

chapter 6 had just got done saying -

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye [corporate 'ye'] are [the--not present in the Grk] temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


The first verse of the next chapter (the one you brought up, 7:1) should be understood in this light.


Also continue on to verses 11-12 of the same 7th chapter, where it says this (within its overall context):

11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
12 Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong [the (judged-to-be-)'wicked' man in the first epistle, who had apparently subsequently repented, according to 2Cor2:6-8 (below)], nor for his cause that suffered wrong [the man he sinned against by taking his wife], but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.


--the previous context -

1 Corinthians 5 -

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

[the wider context being found in 1Cor5:1-5, (and the whole chpt), "that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you" and "concerning him that hath so done this deed" and "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" [some versions say, 'in the day of the Lord'--but either way, I believe this person is not saved presently, or at least judged to not be], and verse 11 saying, "if any man that IS CALLED a brother" [again, this is not saying that they necessarily ARE ACTUALLY a SAVED person, but "called/named" by themselves and others, so... because of what verse 13 states: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES that WICKED PERSON."<---not that saved person who is acting/behaving wickedly, but one judged (estimated) to be an unbeliever and put away from among you, and treated as a unbeliever (i.e. no true "fellowship" can happen between believers and unbelievers, nor is it beneficial to those outside looking in, nor to the body itself [in fellowship])]


2 Corinthians 2:6-8 -

6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.


Now note what Jesus had said in

John 13 -

10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.


...and even what Paul had said in

Romans 16:17 [which I think applies, in some sense] -

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine [teaching] which ye have learned; and avoid them. ["contrary to the doctrine"--there can be no true "fellowship" when there is "doctrine that is contrary" to what was presented by Paul, as though "the doctrine" is just a side issue of no real importance in our "fellowship"]


And of the word "defilement," we can look at

Hebrews 12:15 -

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail [comes short of (lacks)] of the grace of God [I don't believe this is speaking of a saved person]; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby [the] many be defiled [I believe this speaks to "pollution" or "staining [even, of the soul]" of the many (who come in contact with the source of the pollution)]. "Looking diligently" is the responsibility, especially in the corporate setting of "fellowship" (especially because verse 15 here is in connection with verse 14, where it says "without which [holiness ('set-apart-ness')] no man shall see the Lord," which I believe means that "no one [no outsiders (all people, the "all" of verse 14)] looking at you/observing you (the corporate body) will see the Lord IN YOU). Verse 26, "...let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear"... In view of this, I don't believe the "defilement" comes from WITHIN THE SPIRIT of the saved person (the pollution can certainly touch the saved person [even in their "spirit"--for as you acknowledge, we are whole persons], or the pollution-source can be from "wicked [unsaved] persons"--either of these can fit what your verse is saying, in light of all the surrounding contexts and related passages.)


Consider what I've put, and see if you don't find something that rings true. :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.
Amen! Right on! (y)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
It does not really matter at all what you say about justification, it matters what the Bible says and what God says . . .

The only verse you give here is John 10:28. In verse 27 Jesus said that his sheep are hearing his voice and He is knowing them and they are following Him. In verse 28 He says He gives to these sheep eternal life. And thus these sheep that are following him and knowing him will never perish. Take away Verse 27 and Verse 28 does not apply to the goats. Those who are hearing Jesus and are following him continue having eternal life and no one can take them out of the Master's hand! Amen and hallelujah!

I have no idea how you get out of John 10:28 that justification is a judicial term and that "justification by definition is eternal because of who God is". I stick by what I said: there is no Scripture that says clearly that justification is eternal.
It is clear....the gift is eternal life! We are not justified by following Jesus as I explained already justification is God's work.

"The gift of God is eternal life" Romans 6:23. How can eternal life be anything else but eternal? It cannot be lost, forfeited, or sinned away, for "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" Romans 11:29. Eternal life once given is an everlasting gift.

Here is the golden chain and no mention of being dejustified because it does not exist legally.
"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Romans 8:30

From a legal perspective it is non nonsensical to say justification can be lost which means exactly to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit. It is inherent in the meaning of the word.

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5:1

Justification Is Permanent and Irrevocable!!!

There is no double jeopardy, no double indemnity.
Satan cannot appeal the verdict or raise an objection or sue for a mistrial. It is over and done with because Jesus was perfect and we are clothed in His righteousness.
Paul states one is justified and free forever, never to be condemned. We have peace with God eternally. (Rom.5:1)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
It is a deal to cheat death that would proclaim Gods hands are tied in regards to subsequent unbelief. God saved Israel but nevertheless became displeased at their subsequent unbelief and mistrust and refused to let them enter the rest He had prepared for them.

However, it is a race of trust and we stumble sometimes. But we get up and begin to race/trust again, not looking behind us where we stumbled but looking ahead, because we know His mercies begin anew every morning.

A man is wrong to tell anyone that the moment they stumble in trust, they are lost. A man is also wrong to tell anyone that although they were saved through trust, they don't have to keep trusting.

We are saved by the kindness of God through this gift of trust. There is nothing more precious that we have than this trust. We can't win our race without it. We must guard our hearts and keep the trust and keep growing in trust. The world, the flesh and the devil try to trip us by trying to stop us running by making us stop trusting and by filling us with mistrust.

At the same time, God puts tests of our trust before us with the circumstances He places us in. He doesn't do it to trip us but to make evident where dross still remains SO THAT we will cry to Him for what we see we lack.

There are many tricky things satan does. Many ways he twists it up and causes us to stumble in trust. Why aren't we spending our time discussing how he has hit us and how God brought us victory in those places, so that we can help build up each others trust? What if we could help someone else to not have as long a time of misery in one of the pits he got us in by sharing what he twisted and how he abused our minds to think something wrongly about God?

Why waste time arguing incessantly over whether or not we must keep trusting and growing in trust? Of course we must! It's what the race IS!
The gift is eternal life not a gift of trust?