Paper Money and Fiat Currency is the Mark of the Beast

[Dan_473]

Paper was not yet invented in the time of Moses but perhaps there was money printed on papyrus.

Could be!

By the way, did you ever get your question answered about what is Fiat money?

If not, I began an explanation here
https://christianchat.com/threads/p...-is-the-mark-of-the-beast.188076/post-4062184

 

[Sipsey]

In Timothy there is a verse that says ”the love of money” is the root of all or all kinds of evil. The Greek word does not distinguish between paper or coin, but the general concept; it’s the coveting part that is the sin. I think that is the fundamental error in the OP presumption.

 

[tourist]

Could be!

By the way, did you ever get your question answered about what is Fiat money?

If not, I began an explanation here
https://christianchat.com/threads/p...-is-the-mark-of-the-beast.188076/post-4062184

No, but I just ran a google search. Apparently, it is currency that is not backed by anything but the good faith of the country that issued it that it does have intrinsic value and is considered legal tender for financial transactions.

 

[gaviriachristian]

Well, first off, I think that there is a difference between paper money and fiat currency. Although, in the US and most countries, the two ideas overlap.

The idea of paper money is that it can be exchanged for a commodity. In the past it was usually gold, but it was much easier to carry around than the gold, because the gold would get very heavy if you had to carry very much of it. When the USA was still on the gold standard, at least as I understand it, a person could at least in theory exchange their paper money for a fixed amount of gold.

Fiat money is a whole different ball game, though it is often used in the same system as paper currency.

Fiat is Latin for
Let there be

Fiat lux
Let there be light

Fiat money
Let there be money

Using the USA as an example, sometime in about the 1930s, laws were passed that detached the dollar from a fixed amount of gold.

Other laws were passed to allow certain institutions, usually Banks, to create money where no money had existed before.

The rate at which banks poof money into existence is controlled in practice by the Federal reserve board.

Does the above all make sense so far, or did you want more details? (Or does anyone else reading this month more details?)

I already explain the history of paper money in my bible study. You are preaching to the choir.

 

[Lightskin]

There are some really sick people in the world claiming to be morally superior while not even understanding the concept of God’s love and saving grace. And these sick people are “teaching” others.

 

[Dan_473]

No, but I just ran a google search. Apparently, it is currency that is not backed by anything but the good faith of the country that issued it that it does have intrinsic value and is considered legal tender for financial transactions.

Yep!

Two interesting details, I think.

Governments like Fiat money because they can manipulate it. The goal is to make the economy ever improving, make people's lives better and better. Of course, that goal isn't always achieved in practice!

Second, if you notice on your US paper currency, it says
This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private.

That means that say you owe the electric company $500. You can walk into their payment office with 500 one dollar bills, and they have to accept it.

If they don't accept it, and try to sue you in court later on, you just have to show that you tendered those notes. By not accepting it they forfeited their right to collect on the debt.

It is legal tender, and must by law be accepted.

(There are stories on the internet of people protesting by paying large bills using pennies. . )

 

[gaviriachristian]

I think we are using different definitions of imaginary. But rather than dispute that, I think the real issue is this
"...which then those who issue it devalue, and so causing the population that uses it to become poorer."

As the currency is devalued relative to a commodity, say, flour, it is also devalued relative to labor.

Here's what I mean.
Suppose 20 years ago a bag of flour cost $1. And minimum wage for a worker at McDonald's was $3 an hour.

For ease of math, let's say that same bag of flour today costs $2. And our McDonald's worker now earns a minimum wage of $6 an hour.

20 years ago, the worker had to work 1/3 of an hour, or 20 minutes to buy the flour.
Today, the same worker works the same 20 minutes to buy the same bag of flour.

So although the price of flour has doubled, the worker buys the same amount of flour with the same amount of labor.

That's a very simple example, of course. In real life, there are loads of factors that influence prices.

There's an interesting situation in the world of electronics, like laptops and cell phones. The amount of labor that it takes today to buy a device with a given amount of computing power versus how much labor an equivalent device would have taken 20 years ago is far less. In other words, when it comes to electronics, people today are far wealthier than they were in the past.

People are not far wealthier today, they are far poorer, through debt, as a result of devaluation, which takes the form of credit cards, mortgages, auto loans, student loans, etc. The devaluation of paper money affects everything, not just salaries and savings, but also the price of goods, but ultimately salaries and savings do lag behind devaluation, which is why prices of goods slowly rise at a faster rate than salaries and savings, thus causing the inhabitants of the world to enter into debt. It's the very explanation of why there is a debt crisis in America, because of the form of money we have today. If someone saved $10,000 USD 20 years ago, that money would buy much less today. And in likewise manner, the rate that minimum wage is increased every so often buy less and less, hence "lags behind the devaluation". Why do you think people go on strikes demanding minimum wages be increased? Because minimum wages buy less and less and lag behind the devaluation. All of this is very obvious to the person that understands the evil that is committed through fiat currency, but to the person that refuses to perceive this, this is all just the mere status quo of daily life. He knows nothing and perceives nothing.

 

[tourist]

(There are stories on the internet of people protesting by paying large bills using pennies. . )

These types are known as penny pinchers.

 

[Lightskin]

to the person that refuses to perceive this, this is all just the mere status quo of daily life. He knows nothing and perceives nothing.

You just described yourself and your lack of knowledge regarding God’s grace.

 

[gaviriachristian]

You just described yourself and your lack of knowledge regarding God’s grace.

The favor of God is not a justification for disobedience. It is you who has no understanding of the favor of God, it is not to permit disobedience, but to permit obedience.

 

[tourist]

People are not far wealthier today, they are far poorer, through debt, as a result of devaluation, which takes the form of credit cards, mortgages, auto loans, student loans, etc. The devaluation of paper money affects everything, not just salaries and savings, but also the price of goods, but ultimately salaries and savings do lag behind devaluation, which is why prices of goods slowly rise at a faster rate than salaries and savings, thus causing the inhabitants of the world to enter into debt. It's the very explanation of why there is a debt crisis in America, because of the form of money we have today. If someone saved $10,000 USD 20 years ago, that money would buy much less today. And in likewise manner, the rate that minimum wage is increased every so often buy less and less, hence "lags behind the devaluation". Why do you think people go on strikes demanding minimum wages be increased? Because minimum wages buy less and less and lag behind the devaluation. All of this is very obvious to the person that understands the evil that is committed through fiat currency, but to the person that refuses to perceive this, this is all just the mere status quo of daily life. He knows nothing and perceives nothing.

Seeing how the barter system is impractical as a means of exchange of goods and service rendered, that leaves fiat currency as the primary means of executing financial transactions. It is clear to me from Revelation, that if anything, the mark of the beast in regards to buying and selling is referring to electronic means of conducting financial transactions and not fiat currency, which is becoming obsolete.

I will ask you once again, if you don't have a job and refuse to use fiat currency, then how do you manage to survive on a daily basis? Even if you are unable to pay in eating in a free food kitchen the food was purchased with fiat currency. Someone had to actually work to make this possible. Eating food free of charge would still make you a hypocrite.

I do agree with you about the current financial economic reality that exists in the US and other developed countries but fiat currency plays no role in what the mark of the beast is.

Relatively few people in the US actually work for the established federal minimum wage.

 

[Dan_473]

I already explain the history of paper money in my bible study. You are preaching to the choir.

Do you explain the history of Fiat money on your website?

Also, do you currently take the view that paper money is inherently evil?

 

[garee]

I discuss why paper money is evil in my bible study, which also identifies the beasts of Daniel and Revelation and how they relate to the mark of the beast, http://www.wisdomofgod.us/2018/12/0...the-mark-of-the-beast-and-the-meaning-of-666/ .

Nothing is evil in itself save the lies of the evil one. The mark of the beast as a rudiment of this world is not a literal mark any more than the seal on our forehead used to represent those who do the will of our Father not seen .

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (seen the temporal. . money, silver or gold.. . graven by art and man's device. Printing presses. ) of the world, and not after Christ. (not seen the eternal )

The things seen can be used to represent the things not seen but they never become the eternal . We do not know Christ after the the rudiments of this world to include paper, money or gold .

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

If we do not know him after his corrupted flesh the things seen why would money come into play?

Jesus said its an evil generation natural man a beast of the field that does seek after the things seen (no faith). No sign to include the one in view will be given .We walk by faith the unseen eternal .


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, (by faith the unsen) being understood by the things that are made, (not in respect to the things seen) even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory (not seen) of the uncorruptible God into an image (seen) made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1: 18-23

 

[gaviriachristian]

Nothing is evil in itself save the lies of the evil one. The mark of the beast as a rudiment of this world is not a literal mark any more than the seal on our forehead used to represent those who do the will of our Father not seen .

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (seen the temporal. . money, silver or gold.. . graven by art and man's device. Printing presses. ) of the world, and not after Christ. (not seen the eternal )

The things seen can be used to represent the things not seen but they never become the eternal . We do not know Christ after the the rudiments of this world to include paper, money or gold .

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

If we do not know him after his corrupted flesh the things seen why would money come into play?

Jesus said its an evil generation natural man a beast of the field that does seek after the things seen (no faith). No sign to include the one in view will be given .We walk by faith the unseen eternal .


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, (by faith the unsen) being understood by the things that are made, (not in respect to the things seen) even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory (not seen) of the uncorruptible God into an image (seen) made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1: 18-23

Nothing is evil in of itself? Tell me, is a magazine with a photograph of two men having sex not evil in of itself? You people have no understanding of good and evil.

 

[Lightskin]

The favor of God is not a justification for disobedience. It is you who has no understanding of the favor of God, it is not to permit disobedience, but to permit obedience.

I preach love and grace, and much to your chagrin that does not make me disobedient. You on the other hand are extremely legalistic and wrongly judgmental. Carry on.

 

[gaviriachristian]

I preach love and grace, and much to your chagrin that does not make me disobedient. You on the other hand are extremely legalistic and wrongly judgmental. Carry on.

Obedience is not legalism. The reason you object to what I teach is because you yourself are not in obedience, because if you were indeed in obedience, you would love me because of what I teach, which is the Torah, which is the Law of God, and is the truth, through belief in Yeshuah. You people love to throw around words like love and grace and peace and prosperity, but when it comes down the the itty gritty details of your daily lives, none of you are in obedience, because all of you discard the Torah, which is the Law of God. So you get angry at people like me who remind you people that are you not in obedience, and call me "legalistic" and "judgmental" and "false teacher" and "false prophet" and blah blah blah, because of your own disobedience, not because I am not telling you the truth.

 

[Dan_473]

People are not far wealthier today, they are far poorer, through debt, as a result of devaluation, which takes the form of credit cards, mortgages, auto loans, student loans, etc.

You present a lot of ideas in your post, so I just quoted the first part so we can talk about one idea at a time.

There's an old joke about economists, lots of versions of it. Here's one I like
Q. What do you get when you put two economists in a room?
A. A lot of statistics... And an argument.

So, you assert that people today are
"...poorer, through debt, as a result of devaluation..."

I agree that there's probably loads of statistics that show that the per capita amount of debt expressed as dollars has risen over time in the USA.

How much of that change is due to inflation, or as you say, devaluation? Inflation is actually surprisingly hard to calculate. Or maybe I should say, there are different methods of calculating inflation which yield different results.

For example, the average worker in the USA had to work so many hours to buy a television set in 1966. And again, so many hours to buy a television set in 2016. But you can't really compare the 1966 set with its vacuum tubes and mostly round screen with the 2016 set which has a beautiful high definition rectangular screen.

How do you compare them? Very difficult.

I have loads more to say, but I'll stop there to give you a chance to respond.

 

[Dan_473]

Seeing how the barter system is impractical as a means of exchange of goods and service rendered, that leaves fiat currency as the primary means of executing financial transactions. It is clear to me from Revelation, that if anything, the mark of the beast in regards to buying and selling is referring to electronic means of conducting financial transactions and not fiat currency, which is becoming obsolete.

I will ask you once again, if you don't have a job and refuse to use fiat currency, then how do you manage to survive on a daily basis? Even if you are unable to pay in eating in a free food kitchen the food was purchased with fiat currency. Someone had to actually work to make this possible. Eating food free of charge would still make you a hypocrite.

I do agree with you about the current financial economic reality that exists in the US and other developed countries but fiat currency plays no role in what the mark of the beast is.

Relatively few people in the US actually work for the established federal minimum wage.

(I know you were talking to gaviriachristian, I hope you don't mind my jumping in.)

Whether a person uses paper money, writes a check, or swipes a credit card at a store, in the USA it's all fiat money.

Fiat money is just money that the government or its agents, like Banks, can poof into existence.

Believe it or not, the bank down the street from where you live has the ability to poof dollars into existence.

Because of this, it's virtually impossible to buy sell or trade anything in the USA that is not tainted in some way by Fiat dollars.

It is possible, of course, to avoid handling the particular methods of transferring Fiat dollars, like dollar bills or checks or credit cards.

I suspect it's the same situation everywhere in the world.

 

[Dan_473]

People are not far wealthier today

I assume you are responding to this

In other words, when it comes to electronics, people today are far wealthier than they were in the past.

I used as an example cell phones from 20 years ago, but let's use an even bigger example.

The cell phone that I'm using to right now on this forum has more computing power than a supercomputer from the 1960s. My phone cost about $150, so working at $10 an hour it took me about 15 hours to buy it.

Someone like myself working for that same $10 an hour in the 1960s, which would have been a good wage back then, how long would they have had to work to buy that supercomputer? Probably several years.

So yes, in terms of electronics, I am far wealthier today than a similar person in my position was in the 1960s.

 

[gaviriachristian]

I assume you are responding to this


I used as an example cell phones from 20 years ago, but let's use an even bigger example.

The cell phone that I'm using to right now on this forum has more computing power than a supercomputer from the 1960s. My phone cost about $150, so working at $10 an hour it took me about 15 hours to buy it.

Someone like myself working for that same $10 an hour in the 1960s, which would have been a good wage back then, how long would they have had to work to buy that supercomputer? Probably several years.

So yes, in terms of electronics, I am far wealthier today than a similar person in my position was in the 1960s.

Electronics have nothing to do with wealth. People are indebted now, to epic proportions, that is why we are poorer now than our forefathers were who we not indebted to the magnitude that we are today. All the things people have today, electronics, fancy cars, fancy degrees from fancy universities, etc, are all an illusion of wealth, for most everyone have it through debt. Why else do you suppose that a person that comes out of college already has debt at an average of $50,000 USD or more? We live in an economy of debt, as a result of fiat currency and its deliberate devaluation. In layman's terms, we are poorer, not wealthier. Having a mortgaged house and furniture all paid with credit cards and a fancy car with an auto loan and a college degree with a huge student loan just makes you a glorified slave, not a true wealthy person. Welcome to America. Open your eyes. Understand.