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I think there is a place that the people went to that were moved by the Spirit of God. All the prophets, David, Esther, Joseph, and so forth.
Because they had not lived a perfect life,(though they believed), so they couldn't enter into His rest(heaven) totally until one came who did live a perfect life(Jesus).
This was Abraham's bosom. The 'first fruits of righteousness' is Jesus' perfect life. He led captivity captive (those who were in Abraham's bosom); into the presence of God the Father(heaven).
Because they had not lived a perfect life,(though they believed), so they couldn't enter into His rest(heaven) totally until one came who did live a perfect life(Jesus).
This was Abraham's bosom. The 'first fruits of righteousness' is Jesus' perfect life. He led captivity captive (those who were in Abraham's bosom); into the presence of God the Father(heaven).
H
But heaven was open for those that believed, even in OT times; I think this is made evident when Elijah was taken up to heaven in the whirlwind. When Jesus descended from heaven (to the lower regions - the earth) he became a man, where he suffered and died and was buried and rose again. In this passage in Eph. (4:8-10) isn't Paul talking about Christ conquering his enemies and winning the victory over them? His enemies being Satan, death, and sin.
Elijah went up into the first heaven. It didn't say where that flaming chariot's destination was.(Abraham's bosom perhaps)
Maybe Kenisyes could tell us the hebrew word for 'heaven' that was used in that passage.
In Eph. 4:8-10 it speaks of Jesus ascending(up to heaven) and Jesus descending(to the bowels of the earth).
The phrase 'led captivity captive' pertains to His ascending up on high :
"Wherefore He saith, when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." - Eph. 4:8.
What was He giving them? (Crowns perhaps, such as martyrdom).
Juxtapose that with the next two verses : (Now He that ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower
parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things." - Eph. 4:9,10.
Maybe Kenisyes could tell us the hebrew word for 'heaven' that was used in that passage.
In Eph. 4:8-10 it speaks of Jesus ascending(up to heaven) and Jesus descending(to the bowels of the earth).
The phrase 'led captivity captive' pertains to His ascending up on high :
"Wherefore He saith, when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." - Eph. 4:8.
What was He giving them? (Crowns perhaps, such as martyrdom).
Juxtapose that with the next two verses : (Now He that ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower
parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things." - Eph. 4:9,10.
H
I don't see where in 2 Kings 2, it says that Elijah went up into the first heaven. What is the first heaven, exactly? It did say where the chariots destination was - heaven. "And as they went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (v. 11) According to Strongs Concordance, that Heb. word shamayim means 1) visible heavens (the sky) or 2) Heaven (God's abode).
When you mentioned Jesus descending into the bowels of the earth, are you saying he descended into hell? Just need you to clarify that for me, please. I think that the gifts Christ gave were from the spoils of his victory - his victory over sin, death, and the devil - by his incarnation, death, and resurrection. I think that the next two verses that you mentioned complete the thought of his victorious ascension.
Well, heaven is subjective.
No man comes to the Father except by Jesus.
He is the first fruits of a righteous life, because His life was the only righteous one.
No one ascended to the Father before Him, because none else had the goods(perfect Love).
No one can enter heaven with a shadow of turning(sin), of which there is none in Him.
I think the scriptures you brought up in Ephesians 4:8-10 are perfectly clear.
He ascended and led some sort of group, giving them gifts.
Now if they were already in heaven, where did he lead them?
No man comes to the Father except by Jesus.
He is the first fruits of a righteous life, because His life was the only righteous one.
No one ascended to the Father before Him, because none else had the goods(perfect Love).
No one can enter heaven with a shadow of turning(sin), of which there is none in Him.
I think the scriptures you brought up in Ephesians 4:8-10 are perfectly clear.
He ascended and led some sort of group, giving them gifts.
Now if they were already in heaven, where did he lead them?
H
When Eph. 4:8 talks about Jesus leading a host of captives, I don't think it is talking about people who died before Christs time, and I don't necessarily think that those he led captive are the same as those he gave gifts to. When he lead "captivity captive" I think it is referring to the demonic forces (and all that entails) and illustrates how he defeated them by all that he accomplished. I think when it talks about the giving of gifts, it is referring to men now being able to receive the spoils of his victory over those demonic forces that he defeated.
I agree with you when you say that Jesus was the first fruits of a righteous life...and I know that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. I am not trying to say that there is, or was, another way to heaven (or God) - I believe that God's plan for redemption was clear, even in the OT - and that the OT points us to Jesus. I think it is possible (I can't say for definite because I wasn't alive back then...) that righteous men from those times would have still been able to put their faith in Christ even though he hadn't walked the earth yet. I think that they still would have known that God would send the Redeemer as a sacrifice. That's how David could record messianic prophecy in the Psalms, and how Isaiah could understand the meaning of Isaiah 9:6. God had been revealing his plan ever since Adam and Eve sinned. So, I think it is possible that OT peoples were able to put their faith in Jesus without his actual human birth happening.
I agree with you when you say that Jesus was the first fruits of a righteous life...and I know that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. I am not trying to say that there is, or was, another way to heaven (or God) - I believe that God's plan for redemption was clear, even in the OT - and that the OT points us to Jesus. I think it is possible (I can't say for definite because I wasn't alive back then...) that righteous men from those times would have still been able to put their faith in Christ even though he hadn't walked the earth yet. I think that they still would have known that God would send the Redeemer as a sacrifice. That's how David could record messianic prophecy in the Psalms, and how Isaiah could understand the meaning of Isaiah 9:6. God had been revealing his plan ever since Adam and Eve sinned. So, I think it is possible that OT peoples were able to put their faith in Jesus without his actual human birth happening.
When Eph. 4:8 talks about Jesus leading a host of captives, I don't think it is talking about people who died before Christs time, and I don't necessarily think that those he led captive are the same as those he gave gifts to. When he lead "captivity captive" I think it is referring to the demonic forces (and all that entails) and illustrates how he defeated them by all that he accomplished. I think when it talks about the giving of gifts, it is referring to men now being able to receive the spoils of his victory over those demonic forces that he defeated. But it says plainly that when He ascended He led captivity captive. It doesn't apply that saying -'led captivity captive', when He entered the belly of the earth(hell). Even if you take the meaning as figurative, where would the demonic host be? In heaven(ascending), or in hell(descending)? Also, when He ascended and led captivity captive, it says He 'gave gifts to men(and women); were are the fallen angels? Why was He busy giving gifts to mankind if He was escorting fallen angels to the abyss? Eph. 4:6 and Eph. 4:9,10 are two completely different actions taken by the Lord.
I agree with you when you say that Jesus was the first fruits of a righteous life...and I know that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. I am not trying to say that there is, or was, another way to heaven (or God) - I believe that God's plan for redemption was clear, even in the OT - and that the OT points us to Jesus. I think it is possible (I can't say for definite because I wasn't alive back then...) that righteous men from those times would have still been able to put their faith in Christ even though he hadn't walked the earth yet.Yes, it is a written fact that they did. I think that they still would have known that God would send the Redeemer as a sacrifice. That's how David could record messianic prophecy in the Psalms, and how Isaiah could understand the meaning of Isaiah 9:6. God had been revealing his plan ever since Adam and Eve sinned. So, I think it is possible that OT peoples were able to put their faith in Jesus without his actual human birth happening. Yes, they did, that is infact what happened. But they were not yet able to enter into the kingdom of heaven. (So the place called Abraham's bosom was their residing place.) These are the souls Jesus led into heaven, giving them gifts for their obedience.
I agree with you when you say that Jesus was the first fruits of a righteous life...and I know that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. I am not trying to say that there is, or was, another way to heaven (or God) - I believe that God's plan for redemption was clear, even in the OT - and that the OT points us to Jesus. I think it is possible (I can't say for definite because I wasn't alive back then...) that righteous men from those times would have still been able to put their faith in Christ even though he hadn't walked the earth yet.Yes, it is a written fact that they did. I think that they still would have known that God would send the Redeemer as a sacrifice. That's how David could record messianic prophecy in the Psalms, and how Isaiah could understand the meaning of Isaiah 9:6. God had been revealing his plan ever since Adam and Eve sinned. So, I think it is possible that OT peoples were able to put their faith in Jesus without his actual human birth happening. Yes, they did, that is infact what happened. But they were not yet able to enter into the kingdom of heaven. (So the place called Abraham's bosom was their residing place.) These are the souls Jesus led into heaven, giving them gifts for their obedience.
L
This is what the Bible says about paradise
Luke 23:43
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:4
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7
(7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
These verses tell us that paradise is where the tree of life is
Revelation 22:1-2
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
This tells us that the tree of life is where the throne of God is, so there fore according to the Bible paradise is where God is in heaven, the third heaven. Jesus did not go to paradise the day He died because after the resurrection He said He had not yet ascended to the Father. This proves the comma in Luke 23:43 is in the wrong place.
People can give all the opinions they want to try and change the meaning But, it wont change the meaning because all people have to do is put the Bible texts together and listen to the Bible speak.
Luke 23:43
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:4
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7
(7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
These verses tell us that paradise is where the tree of life is
Revelation 22:1-2
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
This tells us that the tree of life is where the throne of God is, so there fore according to the Bible paradise is where God is in heaven, the third heaven. Jesus did not go to paradise the day He died because after the resurrection He said He had not yet ascended to the Father. This proves the comma in Luke 23:43 is in the wrong place.
People can give all the opinions they want to try and change the meaning But, it wont change the meaning because all people have to do is put the Bible texts together and listen to the Bible speak.
H
I'm sorry...I am not all fancy with this quote thing like you are 
Eph. 4:8 says "...When he ascended on high he led a host of captives and gave gifts to men." I think it is talking figuratively in the sense that he didn't literally take the demonic host with him to heaven. The act of his ascension completed his redemptive work on earth, and by doing that he defeated the demonic host. Not just the demonic host, like Satan and his demons, but also death and sin - he conquered all of it. And, by conquering death, sin, and Satan - he gave us (men) the gifts (or spoils) that go along with that, seeing as how we (as believers) are not held under Satan's rule anymore. I think that is why it says "and gave gifts to men." I don't think it was two different actions, I think it was complete - his act of descending and ascending accomplished the defeat of Satan and provided gifts for men.
I still don't see where it says that - even though they believed in the Savior - the OT peoples were still not allowed into heaven. Can you please clarify that for me?
Eph. 4:8 says "...When he ascended on high he led a host of captives and gave gifts to men." I think it is talking figuratively in the sense that he didn't literally take the demonic host with him to heaven. The act of his ascension completed his redemptive work on earth, and by doing that he defeated the demonic host. Not just the demonic host, like Satan and his demons, but also death and sin - he conquered all of it. And, by conquering death, sin, and Satan - he gave us (men) the gifts (or spoils) that go along with that, seeing as how we (as believers) are not held under Satan's rule anymore. I think that is why it says "and gave gifts to men." I don't think it was two different actions, I think it was complete - his act of descending and ascending accomplished the defeat of Satan and provided gifts for men. I still don't see where it says that - even though they believed in the Savior - the OT peoples were still not allowed into heaven. Can you please clarify that for me?
I still don't see where it says that - even though they believed in the Savior - the OT peoples were still not allowed into heaven. Can you please clarify that for me?
Because they were not qualified to enter. - Not without their savior. He led them to heaven because He was their atonement.
No human is able to be in the presence of God without the only perfect human vouching for them.
This is what the 'first fruits of righteousness' means. - Jesus was the only one who lived a perfect life......agreed?
Now, 'be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect'. - Yes?
Who is perfect? Who has broken the seventh seal? Whose blood(the life is in the blood) was shed for the sins of mankind?
Do you see the significance of the act? That without Jesus, and His substitutionary atonement, none of the 'holy' people
of the old testament were able to see God? None of them were able to commune with the Father until Jesus made atonement for them.
You can see this truth, right?
Because they were not qualified to enter. - Not without their savior. He led them to heaven because He was their atonement.
No human is able to be in the presence of God without the only perfect human vouching for them.
This is what the 'first fruits of righteousness' means. - Jesus was the only one who lived a perfect life......agreed?
Now, 'be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect'. - Yes?
Who is perfect? Who has broken the seventh seal? Whose blood(the life is in the blood) was shed for the sins of mankind?
Do you see the significance of the act? That without Jesus, and His substitutionary atonement, none of the 'holy' people
of the old testament were able to see God? None of them were able to commune with the Father until Jesus made atonement for them.
You can see this truth, right?
H
And I agree with you that paradise is heaven. I don't think Jesus is a liar when he said he had not yet ascended to the Father...I think he was talking about physically ascending to the Father. He hadn't physically ascended to the Father yet - but that doesn't mean he didn't ascend to heaven when his physical body was in the tomb.
I like your second last sentence...I might use it as a signature...would that be okay?
I like your second last sentence...I might use it as a signature...would that be okay?
L
And I agree with you that paradise is heaven. I don't think Jesus is a liar when he said he had not yet ascended to the Father...I think he was talking about physically ascending to the Father. He hadn't physically ascended to the Father yet - but that doesn't mean he didn't ascend to heaven when his physical body was in the tomb.
I like your second last sentence...I might use it as a signature...would that be okay?
I like your second last sentence...I might use it as a signature...would that be okay?