Paradise

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hopesprings

Guest
#61
#61
RickShafer said:
I still don't see where it says that - even though they believed in the Savior - the OT peoples were still not allowed into heaven. Can you please clarify that for me?

Because they were not qualified to enter. - Not without their savior. He led them to heaven because He was their atonement.
No human is able to be in the presence of God without the only perfect human vouching for them.
This is what the 'first fruits of righteousness' means. - Jesus was the only one who lived a perfect life......agreed?
Now, 'be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect'. - Yes?
Who is perfect? Who has broken the seventh seal? Whose blood(the life is in the blood) was shed for the sins of mankind?
Do you see the significance of the act? That without Jesus, and His substitutionary atonement, none of the 'holy' people
of the old testament were able to see God? None of them were able to commune with the Father until Jesus made atonement for them.
You can see this truth, right?
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I can see this truth...I really can...I am not saying that the OT people didn't need the atonement to get to heaven...I know that they would have. Jesus' blood was shed for the sins of mankind...but he was slain before the foundation of the world - meaning that God has already ordained his being the substitute for us. If OT people believed that, then why wouldn't they go to heaven? don't really know how the 'first fruits of righteousness" fits into that though...hmmmm....guess I'm going to have to think about that one :)
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#62
Sep 8, 2012
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#62
Well, texts fit together quite well for the one formulating them.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#63
#63
RickShafer said:
Well, texts fit together quite well for the one formulating them.
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I have not seen you quoting any texts since I came onto this thread although you quite often say I think.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#64
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
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#64
hopesprings said:
I can see this truth...I really can...I am not saying that the OT people didn't need the atonement to get to heaven...I know that they would have. Jesus' blood was shed for the sins of mankind...but he was slain before the foundation of the world - meaning that God has already ordained his being the substitute for us. If OT people believed that, then why wouldn't they go to heaven? don't really know how the 'first fruits of righteousness" fits into that though...hmmmm....guess I'm going to have to think about that one :)
Click to expand...
Hope, where was Abraham's bosom?
And what was it?
Jesus talked about it when He addressed the rich man in hell concerning Lazarus the beggar.
Remember?
What was He talking about?
Such a place as Abraham's bosom/
Thoughts?
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#67
Sep 8, 2012
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#67
Yea, I use the mind God gave me.
Backed by scripture that I and others have outlined.
Instead of finding the word 'paradise' in a concordance and splatting it down
on the page.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#69
#69
RickShafer said:
Yea, I use the mind God gave me.
Backed by scripture that I and others have outlined.
Instead of finding the word 'paradise' in a concordance and splatting it down
on the page.
Click to expand...
Before I posted on this topic I went over this topic and I see a lot of I think from your posts, that means you are not certain.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#70
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
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#70
Laodicea said:
Subjective to what?
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You have taken a phrase I used to illustrate a greater truth,
and used it to accuse me.
Much in the fashion of the inquisitors.
Speak in logical points to me, or I have no way of listening.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#71
#71
RickShafer said:
You have taken a phrase I used to illustrate a greater truth,
and used it to accuse me.
Much in the fashion of the inquisitors.
Speak in logical points to me, or I have no way of listening.
Click to expand...
You made a statement, I asked a question, I did not accuse you, it is a question. Since you made a statement like that you need to be prepared to give an answer.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#72
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
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#72
Laodicea said:
Before I posted on this topic I went over this topic and I see a lot of I think from your posts, that means you are not certain.
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Yes, that's right.
The topic of Abraham's bosom and paradise in is not set in stone in scripture.
It's not one of the ten commandments, as you would like it to be.
Any mortal who claims certainty of it is foolish.
As in claiming something they cannot prove.
But I'm most certain you can......... so go on........
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#73
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
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#73
Laodicea said:
You made a statement, I asked a question, I did not accuse you, it is a question. Since you made a statement like that you need to be prepared to give an answer.
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Please restate your question.
 
C

chesser

Guest
#74
#74
kenisyes said:
Here is my problem: Luke 23:43 "This day you will be with me in Paradise" proves Jesus was in Paradise before nightfall on the day He was crucified. John 20:17 "I have not yet ascended to my Father", as of three days later. Matt. 6:9 "Or Father who art in heaven". These together prove Jesus had not been to heaven, but He had been to paradise.
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No, the usual explenation to that is that the comma was placed wrong by translators(as Greeks had no punctuation, it was the interpreters who added it) instead of before the word today, the comma should be placed after the word today.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#75
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
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#75
Laodicea said:
If Jesus would have went to paradise the day He died then He would be a liar because He said after the resurrection He had not yet ascended to the Father. Understanding the Bible is not about what we think it is about what the Bible says. I showed from the Bible what paradise is.
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Paradise and Heaven are two different places.
See how you hold the Lord to your own misunderstanding of scripture(the truth)?
Even to the extent of calling Him a liar if He actually did what He said He would do to the thief on the cross?
 
S

SleepingLion

Guest
#76
#76
simplyme_bekah said:
to me when I think of the word paradise what comes to mind is just simply finally being in the presence of our Lord. I don't care so much about the surroundings because to me they are second compared to just being our Lords lamb his child that follows him around like a lost puppy lol.
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Thats how I see it as well, and hell to me would be never being able to feel him again, him turning his back on me for eternity is worse then any flame.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#78
#78
RickShafer said:
Paradise and Heaven are two different places.
See how you hold the Lord to your own misunderstanding of scripture(the truth)?
Even to the extent of calling Him a liar if He actually did what He said He would do to the thief on the cross?
Click to expand...
Again your own opinion and no Bible.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#79
#79
RickShafer said:
Hope, where was Abraham's bosom?
And what was it?
Jesus talked about it when He addressed the rich man in hell concerning Lazarus the beggar.
Remember?
What was He talking about?
Such a place as Abraham's bosom/
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I am not sure where Abraham's bosom was? I don't think the passage in Luke says - and I don't recall if it is mentioned anywhere else in scripture (though, I don't think it is). I understand Jesus' parable here, and how he describes this great divide between the righteous Lazarus and the unrighteous rich man. But I understand this account (luke 16:19-31) to be a parable where Jesus continues to address the abuse of wealth and how you cannot buy redemption. Not only that, but how those who think they can have their "best life now" are terribly mistaken. The rich man had everything while he walked the earth and the poor man had nothing. In fact, the poor man was nothing in the eyes of the rich man. But God knows the secret motives of the heart and He knew that the poor man was righteous. Doesn't scripture say that he chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise? Its always a heart condition, never a condition of do's and dont's. But...I don't think Abraham's bosom was a literal place, I think Jesus used this picture to illustrate the point he was making - which is what he usually did when speaking in parables.
 
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hopesprings

Guest
#80
#80
Laodicea said:
That is good if you want to use the saying. Just remember not to read into the Bible. Jesus said it and that should be it rather than trying to dissect what He said.
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I think it is terrible when people try to "read into the bible". I guess maybe I don't really understand your point? Are you arguing that paradise is heaven or are you arguing that Jesus was dead (in the non-existent sense) in the grave during the three days? What do you think the passage in Eph. 4 is saying?
 
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