Paradise

[RickShafer]

Again your own opinion and no Bible.

No Bible? Explain Abraham's bosom.

 

[Laodicea]

No Bible? Explain Abraham's bosom.

I asked you a question first which you have not yet answered and there are other threads about the parable in Luke.

 

[RickShafer]

I am not sure where Abraham's bosom was? I don't think the passage in Luke says - and I don't recall if it is mentioned anywhere else in scripture (though, I don't think it is). I understand Jesus' parable here, and how he describes this great divide between the righteous Lazarus and the unrighteous rich man. But I understand this account (luke 16:19-31) to be a parable where Jesus continues to address the abuse of wealth and how you cannot buy redemption. Not only that, but how those who think they can have their "best life now" are terribly mistaken. The rich man had everything while he walked the earth and the poor man had nothing. In fact, the poor man was nothing in the eyes of the rich man. But God knows the secret motives of the heart and He knew that the poor man was righteous. Doesn't scripture say that he chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise? Its always a heart condition, never a condition of do's and dont's. But...I don't think Abraham's bosom was a literal place, I think Jesus used this picture to illustrate the point he was making - which is what he usually did when speaking in parables.

Hope, with all due respect, Jesus doesn't use fables to make His point. If He referred to hell then it is real.
If He referred to Abraham's bosom then it also is an actual place.
Jesus had to live a perfect life. Part of the fulfillment of which is not to lie.
Everything He said was truth. He never made up stories. All the parables are true.
Every one of them is either a harkening to something that actually happened-(a.k.a. the good samaritan);or spiritual applications to material truths-(the four types of seed growth).

He was careful to fulfill all righteousness, even down to having a man baptize Him(John the Baptist);
and not going into the cities in Israel founded by the greeks. (Remember, there were ten cities He wouldn't enter)?

Abraham's bosom is a literal place; it is the place were the 'saved' went before the Lord of Glory could present them to the Father with His living,(and dieing) sacrifice.
Thus this is what the' first fruits of righteousness' means. - Jesus being it.

 

[RickShafer]

I asked you a question first which you have not yet answered and there are other threads about the parable in Luke.

What? That the Bible is subjective?
Only to those that misinterpret it.
Which if you had the honesty to complete my quote you wouldn't have been able to ask the question.
So do you understand?
The bible is subjective to those who misinterpret it.
I challenge you to go back and quote the whole of my post; instead of a part, and find anything different.

 

[RickShafer]

The subtlety of the snake.
Taking half statements and spinning them into whole lies to convict the innocent.

 

[Laodicea]

What? That the Bible is subjective?
Only to those that misinterpret it.
Which if you had the honesty to complete my quote you wouldn't have been able to ask the question.
So do you understand?
The bible is subjective to those who misinterpret it.
I challenge you to go back and quote the whole of my post; instead of a part, and find anything different.

You said heaven is subjective and do not try to turn the question around just answer the question.

 

[hopesprings]

Hope, with all due respect, Jesus doesn't use fables to make His point. If He referred to hell then it is real.
If He referred to Abraham's bosom then it also is an actual place.
Jesus had to live a perfect life. Part of the fulfillment of which is not to lie.
Everything He said was truth. He never made up stories. All the parables are true.
Every one of them is either a harkening to something that actually happened-(a.k.a. the good samaritan);or spiritual applications to material truths-(the four types of seed growth).

He was careful to fulfill all righteousness, even down to having a man baptize Him(John the Baptist);
and not going into the cities in Israel founded by the greeks. (Remember, there were ten cities He wouldn't enter)?

Abraham's bosom is a literal place; it is the place were the 'saved' went before the Lord of Glory could present them to the Father with His living,(and dieing) sacrifice.
Thus this is what the' first fruits of righteousness' means. - Jesus being it.

Rick, I disagree. Jesus often used parables (which are simple stories used to teach moral or spiritual lessons). In fact, he purposely spoke in parables so that some could not understand. Maybe the account of the good samaritan actually happened, or maybe Jesus was just using that parable to teach something. Does it really matter either way? He didn't say 'this is a true story of something that happened to a friend of a friend of mine' (jk) - it was a parable - a story used to teach a lesson. We use stories all the time to teach moral and spiritual lessons to our children, don't we? Doesn't make us liars by doing that. Everything that Jesus said was the truth, absolutely! I could never argue that! But if Abraham's bosom is not a real place, then that doesn't make the parable any "less" true, does it? I believe that hell is a real place, but it wasn't spoken of in a parable in every instance it was used. It was spoken of as a real place - other scripture backs that. Do any other scriptures back Abraham's bosom being a real place?

 

[hopesprings]

It's getting a little warm in here....

 

[RickShafer]

You said heaven is subjective and do not try to turn the question around just answer the question.

Quote my whole post.
And stop practicing deceit.
Or should I find it and post it for you.
I think I will.
Since you are bent on accusation.
Let the readers behold the subversion of the legalist mind.

 

[RickShafer]

HopeSprings said - 'I don't see where in 2 Kings 2, it says that Elijah went up into the first heaven. What is the first heaven, exactly?'

And I said - Well, heaven is subjective. ( Meaning there are three: the atmosphere, the universe, and the place where God resides)
No man comes to the Father except by Jesus.
He is the first fruits of a righteous life, because His life was the only righteous one.
No one ascended to the Father before Him, because none else had the goods(perfect Love).
No one can enter heaven with a shadow of turning(sin), of which there is none in Him.
I think the scriptures you brought up in Ephesians 4:8-10 are perfectly clear.
He ascended and led some sort of group, giving them gifts.
Now if they were already in heaven, where did he lead them?

But leave it to one who strains at a gnat to find fault in what I said.

 

[RickShafer]

Rick, I disagree. Jesus often used parables (which are simple stories used to teach moral or spiritual lessons). In fact, he purposely spoke in parables so that some could not understand. Maybe the account of the good samaritan actually happened, or maybe Jesus was just using that parable to teach something. Does it really matter either way? Of course it does. He didn't say 'this is a true story of something that happened to a friend of a friend of mine' (jk) - it was a parable - a story used to teach a lesson. He said these things happened. And someone being assaulted on the road to Damascus was a common occurrence,We use stories all the time to teach moral and spiritual lessons to our children, don't we? Doesn't make us liars by doing that.No, but our children know they are stories. He spoke to adults, and He used parables to show them general truth, but everything He said actually happened. He isn't like us. He had to fulfill all righteousness. Do you know what that means? Everything that Jesus said was the truth, absolutely! I could never argue that! But if Abraham's bosom is not a real place, then that doesn't make the parable any "less" true, does it? Does it make it any less true if there wasn't a Lazarus? Or rich man? Or hell? How far do you want to stretch it? Because there are people who claim the atonement is just a fable. I believe that hell is a real place, but it wasn't spoken of in a parable in every instance it was used. It was spoken of as a real place - other scripture backs that. Do any other scriptures back Abraham's bosom being a real place? ' You will be with Me this day in paradise' - Jesus said that to the thief on the cross. - He also said 'touch me not for I have not ascended to My Father' after He rose from the dead. (Or maybe that was made up too)
So three days before He arose He told someone they would be with Him THAT DAY in paradise.
Then, three days after he told Mary not to touch Him because He hadn't ascended to the Father.
You do the math.

 

[onel]

I am confused about this one point. If we must work to turn earth into a paradise at some point in the future, where is Paradise now? Why not just bring it from wherever it is, and save that part of the work?

-The Bible clearly speaks of a future paradise on earth. For example, the prophet Isaiah described the earth and its inhabitants in this way: “They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruit age. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.” (Isaiah 65:21-25)
*"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever".—Ecclesiastes 1:4

"where is paradise now"?
The earth today is so filled with wickedness, suffering, and sorrow. Thats why as i mention earlier ,before this earth can become a paradise, wicked people must be removed.Jesus Christ, as heavenly King, will bring about the end of this system of things in what is called in the Bible “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Revelation 16:14) Those persons seeking to do what is right need not fear that war, for it will be selective, getting rid of those who do harm to their fellowman and who do not want to serve God. Through their selfishness and greed these wicked ones are “ruining the earth,” hence they themselves must be brought to ruin.
—Revelation 11:18;"The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
In his model prayer, Jesus invited his disciples to pray for God’s will to take place “as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matthew 6:9,*10) Would these words make sense if the earth disappeared or was merely a symbol of heaven? Similarly, would they make sense if all the righteous went to heaven? God’s will for the earth is clearly evident in the Scriptures, from the account of the creation right up to the visions of the book of Revelation. The earth is to become what God purposed—a paradise. This is the will that God promises to accomplish. The faithful on earth pray for the fulfillment of that will.

 

[kenisyes]

and at first glance this would seem this way the scripture or scriptures you quote were john 20;17 "touch me not" and told her he would go,,,then notice the same day but in the evening he returned (from where?),,,as you point out heaven,and then returned,(second coming?),,,,,,,then go to to john 20;27 "reach hither",,and notice it is in response to what Thomas said in verse 25,,"touch",,,,,,,as you said though he told Mary "touch me not",,because he had not yet ascended,,,,then after 8 days told Thomas reach hither thy finger,,,,thy hand",,,that is he had ascended and returned,,,then go to john 20;22 "recieve ye the holy ghost",,,,and notice the that this is before the the day when they were all gathered in acts when they recieved the "comforter",,,,

Another possibility is that women were not to touch Him but men were permitted to. Or that she was attempting to hug Him, not to examine Him medically.

 

[kenisyes]

yes i only used the word pardes to denote "forest" because you referred to it in your post #29,,i knew gan was the correct word but since you brought up pardes i thought you were comfortable with its meaning and in gen.2;15 "to dress it and keep it",,,that is it would make no sense if gan was ment to be taken as "fenced/protected",,,that they were in tern to to dress it and keep it,,,and we should note if it were meant to be "protected by god" as used in this scripture then they being protected would not have been beguiled and eaten of the tree of knowledge,,,,,,,that if we say gan is protected by god,,,then eve,Adam,nor the serpent commited sin. that is if gan,denotes gods protection then he is who let the sin take place,but this cannot be correct,,,we have the story in chapter 2 of gen itself to affix that the word gan is used to denote "garden or forest",,,,,

I understand protection as protection from the destructive elements of the earth. We fence a garden to keep the rabbits out, but we still want the ladybugs and songbirds in. There are early legends that the serpent originally flew (which is why he was punished having to crawl on the ground). It does not say the fence was thorough, it does not even say specifically there was a fence. The only conclusion I drew was that the Jewish rabbis used the play on the word to make the commandments a new "protective hedge", and thus compare following God to being in a garden. This is common practice for them and does lead to error, as you point out the inconsistency suggests error in this case.

 

[kenisyes]

I think there is a place that the people went to that were moved by the Spirit of God. All the prophets, David, Esther, Joseph, and so forth.
Because they had not lived a perfect life,(though they believed), so they couldn't enter into His rest(heaven) totally until one came who did live a perfect life(Jesus).
This was Abraham's bosom. The 'first fruits of righteousness' is Jesus' perfect life. He led captivity captive (those who were in Abraham's bosom); into the presence of God the Father(heaven).

This was advanced as a theory in some of the Jewish and early Christian literature. Paradise as a holding tank for the righteous. An interesting parallel is the history of the Rachabites (if I have spelled it right). It seems Jeremiah was one day catapulted by a cooperative tree into the sky where he landed on an airborne island, where the missing tribe was living in near Paradise conditions. If I recall, II Enoch suggests Melchizedek was kept in the garden of Eden during the flood, so he would not die.

Please don't think I believe any of this. I'm just telling you stories of what people have said over the years.

 

[kenisyes]

Maybe Kenisyes could tell us the hebrew word for 'heaven' that was used in that passage.
In Eph. 4:8-10 it speaks of Jesus ascending(up to heaven) and Jesus descending(to the bowels of the earth).
.

Shamayim, Strongs 8064. But that is of little help. It is already plural, and was used by the Jews for everything from God's throneroom to where the birds fly to where the demons live.

 

[kenisyes]

No, the usual explenation to that is that the comma was placed wrong by translators(as Greeks had no punctuation, it was the interpreters who added it) instead of before the word today, the comma should be placed after the word today.

I checked the Greek, and "today" is much closer to the verb "will be" than it is to "said". Further, Gill states that all early versions in languages which have any means of clarifying have their translation say Jesus said, "This day you will be with me...".

 

[kenisyes]

-The Bible clearly speaks of a future paradise on earth. For example, the prophet Isaiah described the earth and its inhabitants in this way: “They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruit age. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.” (Isaiah 65:21-25)
*"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever".—Ecclesiastes 1:4

"where is paradise now"?
The earth today is so filled with wickedness, suffering, and sorrow. Thats why as i mention earlier ,before this earth can become a paradise, wicked people must be removed.Jesus Christ, as heavenly King, will bring about the end of this system of things in what is called in the Bible “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Revelation 16:14) Those persons seeking to do what is right need not fear that war, for it will be selective, getting rid of those who do harm to their fellowman and who do not want to serve God. Through their selfishness and greed these wicked ones are “ruining the earth,” hence they themselves must be brought to ruin.
—Revelation 11:18;"The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
In his model prayer, Jesus invited his disciples to pray for God’s will to take place “as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matthew 6:9,*10) Would these words make sense if the earth disappeared or was merely a symbol of heaven? Similarly, would they make sense if all the righteous went to heaven? God’s will for the earth is clearly evident in the Scriptures, from the account of the creation right up to the visions of the book of Revelation. The earth is to become what God purposed—a paradise. This is the will that God promises to accomplish. The faithful on earth pray for the fulfillment of that will.

I agree with everything you are saying. There will one day be paradise on earth, and we will live there, and that time is not now. My question concerns what I thought I heard you say in that previous post, that we will work to "create" it. I see Scriptural support that we will live in it, and we will even make improvements. My question is, is God not going to bring paradise to us? or do we need to build it from scratch?

 

[cfultz3]

I checked the Greek, and "today" is much closer to the verb "will be" than it is to "said". Further, Gill states that all early versions in languages which have any means of clarifying have their translation say Jesus said, "This day you will be with me...".

in addition:

Did they not both, on that day, went to Abraham's Bosom? The theif because He placed hope in being delivered from Hades when He said, 'Remember me'. And Jesus to deliver those who placed their hope in One who would deliverer them from the judgement of the Law. So, does not this 'today' mean what it says, 'this day'. And on that day, they both closed their eyes and meet in Paradise. And I am sure Jesus did not forget that theif who placed hope in Him.

 

[hopesprings]

Rick, I disagree. Jesus often used parables (which are simple stories used to teach moral or spiritual lessons). In fact, he purposely spoke in parables so that some could not understand. Maybe the account of the good samaritan actually happened, or maybe Jesus was just using that parable to teach something. Does it really matter either way? Of course it does. He didn't say 'this is a true story of something that happened to a friend of a friend of mine' (jk) - it was a parable - a story used to teach a lesson. He said these things happened. And someone being assaulted on the road to Damascus was a common occurrence,We use stories all the time to teach moral and spiritual lessons to our children, don't we? Doesn't make us liars by doing that.No, but our children know they are stories. He spoke to adults, and He used parables to show them general truth, but everything He said actually happened. He isn't like us. He had to fulfill all righteousness. Do you know what that means? Everything that Jesus said was the truth, absolutely! I could never argue that! But if Abraham's bosom is not a real place, then that doesn't make the parable any "less" true, does it? Does it make it any less true if there wasn't a Lazarus? Or rich man? Or hell? How far do you want to stretch it? Because there are people who claim the atonement is just a fable. I believe that hell is a real place, but it wasn't spoken of in a parable in every instance it was used. It was spoken of as a real place - other scripture backs that. Do any other scriptures back Abraham's bosom being a real place? ' You will be with Me this day in paradise' - Jesus said that to the thief on the cross. - He also said 'touch me not for I have not ascended to My Father' after He rose from the dead. (Or maybe that was made up too)
So three days before He arose He told someone they would be with Him THAT DAY in paradise.
Then, three days after he told Mary not to touch Him because He hadn't ascended to the Father.
You do the math.

In that entire parable in Luke 16, Jesus doesn't say that these things happened literally. And, when I asked it if really mattered (it was very late and I was very tired, btw) I meant that the truth's Jesus was conveying in this passage remain that same - regardless is Abraham's bosom was a real place or not. There is no proof in the context of Luke 16 that Jesus was telling a literal story, especially considering he used parables to show truth many times. But, I think if you are going to say that this parable was literal (that there really was a place called Abraham's bosom) then you kind of have to consider that all Jesus' parables were literal. I understand that people were being ambushed on the road in those times (the parable of the good samaritan) - that is why the parable would have had such an impact. That doesn't mean that the actual occurance of a man being beaten and a samaritan stopping - actually happened. I do acknowledge that this may have happened...but that doesn't mean that it definitely happened - and either way, the truth remains the same.

Does it make it any less true if there wasn't a Lazarus? Or rich man? Or hell? How far do you want to stretch it? Because there are people who claim the atonement is just a fable. The pages of the bible are riddled with the atonement and to deny that is ridiculous, but I see your point in "stretching it". Considering that all the NT occurances of the word paradise are used in speaking of the "third heaven" or the place where God's throne is...I don't think it is a stretch to conclude that is the paradise that Jesus was talking about in Luke 23:43. I actually think you are stretching it by concluding otherwise. I understand what you are trying to say, asking me to do the math (I was never very good at math) with Luke 23:43 and Jesus' command to Mary not to touch him - but he was referring to the fact that he had not yet ascended bodily to the Father. Again, how could God the Son not be present in heaven after leaving his earthly body behind? So the scriptures that you quoted to prove the existence of Abraham's bosom do not prove it at all, unless you already assume that it what Jesus is talking about.

I tried to find where the bible says that Jesus is the first fruits of righteousness, but I couldn't locate it. I found something similar to that in 1 Cor. 15 - but Paul was speaking about the resurrection here. Maybe you were referring to a different passage and I just can't find it. Can you tell me where it is please? (please note...I am not denying that it was said, just can't find it is all ). And, perhapes I do not fully understand what it means when you say that he had to fulfill all righteousness. Can you clarify please?

I used your comment at part of my signature; I couldn't help myself!