Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

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DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
283
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#41
My question wasn't based on anything you said or didn't say. I was just wondering if you believed Jesus was being penalized. He certainly was penalized unjustly by men, but the doctrine of "penal substitution" is nonsense.
I see Journeyman, thanks for the clarification. Yes, Jesus was utterly scorned and abused by man, and punished by the Romans (instigated by the Jews) unjustly. As was to varying degrees Jeremiah, Elijah, Gedaliah, Isaiah, all the apostles, martyrs , etc... I say this (for others, not you) so that identifying his punishment as such, does not get misconstrued to mean it was the significance behind the atonement.
As far as the Jews and Romans were concerned, yes they felt that they were punishing Jesus as he deserved, but we know better that they unwillingly were fulfilling God's plan for mankind. So, what they did was 'right' in God's eyes, but they are condemned because that was not their intent.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
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#42
I see Journeyman, thanks for the clarification. Yes, Jesus was utterly scorned and abused by man, and punished by the Romans (instigated by the Jews) unjustly. As was to varying degrees Jeremiah, Elijah, Gedaliah, Isaiah, all the apostles, martyrs , etc... I say this (for others, not you) so that identifying his punishment as such, does not get misconstrued to mean it was the significance behind the atonement.
As far as the Jews and Romans were concerned, yes they felt that they were punishing Jesus as he deserved, but we know better that they unwillingly were fulfilling God's plan for mankind. So, what they did was 'right' in God's eyes, but they are condemned because that was not their intent.
Well, what Jesus did was right in his Fathers eyes (1Pet.1:20). What they did to him was wrong in Gods eyes (Mt.21:41).
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
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138
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#43
Well, what Jesus did was right in his Fathers eyes (1Pet.1:20). What they did to him was wrong in Gods eyes (Mt.21:41).
Yes, I knew that one would require explaining. ….I quoted it meaning that it was intended in God's eyes, and therefore, acceptable or right in that sense, ...but again, they will be condemned for it, so in that respect, it was 'wrong' and displeasing in God's eyes.

Both are true, you know what I mean?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#44
My question wasn't based on anything you said or didn't say. I was just wondering if you believed Jesus was being penalized. He certainly was penalized unjustly by men, but the doctrine of "penal substitution" is nonsense.
If we would attribute any of the work to men and not a fulfilment of Isaiah 53 then I would agree. . . nonsense

It is the work of two to form the government of God. The father and the Son that brings the peace of God that surpasses all human understanding. Not the Satan inspired mob or the disciples that were put to sleep and could not help as the father poured out his wrath on Jesus.

Jesus suffered a living hell crying out all three times strengthened by the father who gave him the Spirit life to finish the work keeping his body from corrupting . That parable was similar to the parable with Jonas. But Jonas perfromed that work in rebellion and when he fisined he wanted to die .

The last sign as a wonder.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
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#45
Yes, I knew that one would require explaining. ….I quoted it meaning that it was intended in God's eyes, and therefore, acceptable or right in that sense, ...but again, they will be condemned for it, so in that respect, it was 'wrong' and displeasing in God's eyes.

Both are true, you know what I mean?
God was pleased by his sons conduct during adversity. God was not pleased by the adversity itself.
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
283
138
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#46
God was pleased by his sons conduct during adversity. God was not pleased by the adversity itself.
Yes, that, in and of itself, is true. Wasn't exactly my comparison, but you are equally correct either way.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#47
If we would attribute any of the work to men and not a fulfilment of Isaiah 53 then I would agree. . . nonsense

It is the work of two to form the government of God. The father and the Son that brings the peace of God that surpasses all human understanding. Not the Satan inspired mob or the disciples that were put to sleep and could not help as the father poured out his wrath on Jesus.

Jesus suffered a living hell crying out all three times strengthened by the father who gave him the Spirit life to finish the work keeping his body from corrupting . That parable was similar to the parable with Jonas. But Jonas perfromed that work in rebellion and when he fisined he wanted to die .
The last sign as a wonder.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
The wrath of men does not equal the wrath of God. Men poured their wrath out on Jesus.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,920
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47
#48
I like the way that Dr. William Lane Craig lays out the case for penal substitution.

I agree with it myself, but as Dr. Craig pointed out, there is even a "division" within the group that supports PSA; namely whether God the Father actually "punished" Christ for our sins, or whether He (Christ) merely suffered what would have been OUR punishment for OUR sins had it been inflicted upon US.

I admit that I don't fully understand PSA, and I personally am not certain as to whether I agree more with one sub-group or the other. Even after reading the Scriptures which speak to Christ's sacrifice and atonement.

Yes, the Scriptures say that Christ "was made sin" although "He knew no sin". However, for me, that doesn't fully explain the nature of the things He suffered. That is, was He actually "punished" or did He merely suffer what would have been our punishment?

You can check out Dr. Craig's videos on PSA here at: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/, or at: https://www.youtube.com/user/ReasonableFaithOrg
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
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#49
PART I

Christians will find many articles or writings which allege that Penal Substitution as applied to the finished work of Christ is a “theory”, and one among many. They will also allege that this is purely a Reformed doctrine, and that the Reformers came up with this teaching, rather than it being a Bible and Gospel truth, which all Bible-believing Christians accept (including Non-Calvinists). But Penal Substitution is not a theory. It is Gospel Truth. And we do not need to look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers (or any so-called scholars or theologians) to see if they had a correct understanding of Bible truth. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did not. And they certainly did not write by Divine inspiration.

WHAT DOES PENAL SUBSTITUTION MEAN?
Theopedia provides us with a satisfactory summary of the meaning of penal substitution.

“Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.”

The word “penal” is related to penalty, particularly crimes committed by criminals. But it is also applicable to sins committed by sinners. There is a penalty for every crime or infraction of the laws of the land. And there is also a divine penalty for every sin committed. We see divine penalties applied in the Flood of Noah’s day as well as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (among other cities and nations in the Bible).

The word “substitution” simply means that someone other than the criminal or the sinner has been punished for the crime or sin committed. It would be similar to having two brothers in a court of law where one of them has been convicted of being a murderer. The other brother would approach the judge and ask that the death penalty be applied to him, so that his guilty brother can go free. The penalty would not change, but the one who paid the penalty would have been substituted. And the demands of justice would have been met.

GOD IS THE ULTIMATE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE
God has many attributes and many offices. One of them is that God is the Divine Judge of all humanity. There are numerous Scriptures which proclaim that God is the Divine Judge, and that all His judgments are righteous.


And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is Judge Himself. Selah. (Ps 50:6) But God is the Judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another. (Ps 75:7) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the Righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing. (2 Tim 4:8) Here Christ is the Judge, and indeed God the Father has handed over all judgment to Christ: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. (Acts 17:31)

THE PENALTY FOR SINS AND WICKEDNESS IS DIVINE WRATH
Throughout Scripture we see that Christ was indeed the perfect and only substitute for all mankind. “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor 15:3). Had there been no cross, every sinner (all humanity) would be judged as guilty of death. And that would include the first (or physical) death as well as the second (or spiritual and eternal) death, which is separation from God in the Lake of Fire, and which expresses the wrath of God against sin.


For those who do not understand (or believe) that it is wrath, we have these Scriptures: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them...But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. (Rom 1:18,32; 2:8,9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:9,10)

THE LAMB OF GOD TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE WRATH OF GOD
When Christians reflect upon the sufferings of Christ on the cross, they often focus on the physical pain and excruciating agony of that cross (the worst form of Roman punishment). But God would have us focus on the anguish within the soul of Christ while He bore the wrath of God within Himself. While the word “wrath” does not appear in the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ, we must be clear that that is what was applied to Christ. But it is indicated directly and indirectly in both the Old and New Testaments. And we have other Scriptures which present the agony within the soul and spirit of Christ while He hung on that cross.
The scriptures confirm our wickedness and God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked, the wicked being us. All this is true. However, the Father was not angry with Jesus, how dare you suggest such a thing? Quite simply Christ paid our penalty, which is death, so that we might have eternal life. Thank you Lord.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#50
However, the Father was not angry with Jesus, how dare you suggest such a thing?
Who do you think bore the wrath of God for your sins and mine? I am *suggesting* nothing. However I have quoted many Scriptures to show that (1) there is divine wrath against sin, (2) Christ was made Sin for us, and (3) therefore He bore the wrath of God against sin on our behalf. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe God.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#51
Who do you think bore the wrath of God for your sins and mine? I am *suggesting* nothing. However I have quoted many Scriptures to show that (1) there is divine wrath against sin, (2) Christ was made Sin for us, and (3) therefore He bore the wrath of God against sin on our behalf. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe God.
The quotes you give in the OP tell of God's wrath against us, the wicked. Jesus was never wicked.
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
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#52
The scriptures confirm our wickedness and God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked, the wicked being us. All this is true. However, the Father was not angry with Jesus, how dare you suggest such a thing? Quite simply Christ paid our penalty, which is death, so that we might have eternal life. Thank you Lord.
Hi PS, thank you for your insight. If you have read my posts on this thread, you may not be surprised at what I'm about to ask you.
If Christ's death was a punishment that was intended for us, then how come do we still die?
So both, I don't believe that he suffered enternaly (obviously) as Penal Sub states, in order to claim that this was the intent of his death, but nor can I agree that he simply died for us so that we won't, for, as I stated above, no one escapes death (unless you're alive during the 2nd coming).
So, I must hold that his death was to rescind a covenant, as an heir can only receive his inheritance after the death of the bestower. The Law was the guardian that held us in bondage until the heir was of age to receive his reward. (Heb. 9:16, Gal 3:24-25)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#53
The wrath of men does not equal the wrath of God. Men poured their wrath out on Jesus.

Yes, we are not saved from the wrath of men. The wrath of God is being revealed. corruption doing it work... working toward death the last day..

For unconverted mankind his spiritless lifeless bodies return to the dust from where it was taken from and the temporal corrupted spirit subject to death returns back to the father of all spirit life. The converted believer given a new spirt will rise on the last day .The power of gospel . The unequal equalizer . The just and justifier of our new born again faith.

I think it is one reason that when we are angry we sin not as if we were in the place of God.

James 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

God works the righteousness of God. The work is accredited to the Father and Son alone. The father put the disciples asleep three times to demonstrate. No wrath of men no support of flesh and blood. (the things seen the temporal)
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#54
Hi PS, thank you for your insight. If you have read my posts on this thread, you may not be surprised at what I'm about to ask you.
If Christ's death was a punishment that was intended for us, then how come do we still die?
So both, I don't believe that he suffered enternaly (obviously) as Penal Sub states, in order to claim that this was the intent of his death, but nor can I agree that he simply died for us so that we won't, for, as I stated above, no one escapes death (unless you're alive during the 2nd coming).
So, I must hold that his death was to rescind a covenant, as an heir can only receive his inheritance after the death of the bestower. The Law was the guardian that held us in bondage until the heir was of age to receive his reward. (Heb. 9:16, Gal 3:24-25)
The wicked die eternally, and as you say, that did not happen with Jesus, so God's wrath was obviously not directed at Jesus, or God failed, because He rose again.

Neither is God's wrath directed at the redeemed, only against the wicked, and Jesus was not wicked.

Hebrews 9 is very clear.

(15) Christ died to rescue those who had sinned and broken the old agreement. Now he brings his chosen ones a new agreement with its guarantee of God's eternal blessings!
(16) In fact, making an agreement of this kind is like writing a will. This is because the one who makes the will must die before it is of any use.
(17) In other words, a will doesn't go into effect as long as the one who made it is still alive.


Jesus died according to the law, not because of God's wrath, but so that we shall have eternal life with Him and have it more abundantly. Personally, I see only the love of a Just and Holy God who rescued the redeemed from sin and degradation.
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
283
138
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#55
The wicked die eternally, and as you say, that did not happen with Jesus, so God's wrath was obviously not directed at Jesus, or God failed, because He rose again.

Neither is God's wrath directed at the redeemed, only against the wicked, and Jesus was not wicked.

Hebrews 9 is very clear.

(15) Christ died to rescue those who had sinned and broken the old agreement. Now he brings his chosen ones a new agreement with its guarantee of God's eternal blessings!
(16) In fact, making an agreement of this kind is like writing a will. This is because the one who makes the will must die before it is of any use.
(17) In other words, a will doesn't go into effect as long as the one who made it is still alive.


Jesus died according to the law, not because of God's wrath, but so that we shall have eternal life with Him and have it more abundantly. Personally, I see only the love of a Just and Holy God who rescued the redeemed from sin and degradation.
Gotcha PS, I see what you're saying now, ..God's wrath has not even been poured out yet, but when it does, it is, obviously, only against the wicked.
If so, agreed, great point!
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#56
The scriptures confirm our wickedness and God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked, the wicked being us. All this is true. However, the Father was not angry with Jesus, how dare you suggest such a thing? Quite simply Christ paid our penalty, which is death, so that we might have eternal life. Thank you Lord.

the lack of depth of understanding of just what happened when Christ gave up His life on the cross would suggest rather that a person may ask of you the question 'how dare you'

how dare you suppose Christ paid the penalty when the penalty was DEATH separation from God

how do you suppose our penalty was paid ? do you suppose God watched somewhat distracted?

I would suggest you refer to the gospels and the words of Christ on the cross

I am not going to respond further. I have you on ignore for all of the above reasons and the rest of the uninformed posts you make while doing your best to insult people who know so much more than do you

God is not insulted by the truth but the scripture is clear He does not much care for people putting words in His mouth

for people saying He said something He never did say or representing Him in some way that is not the truth

you have a nice
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#57
Gotcha PS, I see what you're saying now, ..God's wrath has not even been poured out yet, but when it does, it is, obviously, only against the wicked.
If so, agreed, great point!

he is wrong

read the gospel accounts

Jesus said 'My God My God why have you forsaken me?'

what do you suppose that means?

how do you suppose Jesus bore the sins of mankind, including you and me who were not even born yet?

the Proverbs tell us to get understanding

maybe read them too
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#58
Who do you think bore the wrath of God for your sins and mine? I am *suggesting* nothing. However I have quoted many Scriptures to show that (1) there is divine wrath against sin, (2) Christ was made Sin for us, and (3) therefore He bore the wrath of God against sin on our behalf. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe God.

I am appalled at the lack of understanding and the suave way some people just flounce around believing they know better

it is appalling. it really is.

the entire import of Jesus death is lost on these folks
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#59
you have a nice

well I was going to say day, but it isn't

so

whatever

changes nothing anyway
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,454
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#60
I am appalled at the lack of understanding and the suave way some people just flounce around believing they know better
Good observation. It goes to show (a) that there has been little or no teaching on the finished work of Christ and (b) those who are ignorant wish to continue in their ignorance.