Pentecostal and Charismatic

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garee

Banned
#161
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#161
Dave-L said:
It's built on faith. Not on sight that many try to support with phoney claims of miracles.
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It is simply not based on the what eyes see "called the lust of the eye" (a hope in the things seen) .God performs miracle all day every day. We walk by sight . Not by observing the temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#162
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,790
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#162
garee said:
It is simply not based on the what eyes see "called the lust of the eye" (a hope in the things seen) .God performs miracle all day every day. We walk by sight . Not by observing the temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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Not all that the eyes see is the 'lust of the eyes.' One can see without looking with lust.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#163
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#163
Aerials1978 said:
Can someone have the Holy Spirit brought to them outside of reading the Bible?
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The Holy Spirit does not act in an arbitrary fashion, the Holy Spirit moves through the word of God. Oral or written the word of God is the means by which God speaks to the souls of men. Dreams and visions are unreliable in matters of soteriology. Satan himself may appear as an angle of light but he is false and seeking to draw souls away from Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#164
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,790
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#164
notuptome said:
The Holy Spirit does not act in an arbitrary fashion, the Holy Spirit moves through the word of God. Oral or written the word of God is the means by which God speaks to the souls of men. Dreams and visions are unreliable in matters of soteriology. Satan himself may appear as an angle of light but he is false and seeking to draw souls away from Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Instead of reading your theories about what God does not do, we can actually study what the Bible teaches about this. The Bible actually addresses this topic.
Job 33

14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

There are also warnings about prophets who prophesied dreams from their own hearts. So we have to be discerning about such things.
The actual teaching from scripture about the works of the Spirit and the works of God are authoritative. There are many opinions of men about what God does and does not do which are not authoritative.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#165
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#165
presidente said:
Instead of reading your theories about what God does not do, we can actually study what the Bible teaches about this. The Bible actually addresses this topic.
Job 33

14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

There are also warnings about prophets who prophesied dreams from their own hearts. So we have to be discerning about such things.
The actual teaching from scripture about the works of the Spirit and the works of God are authoritative. There are many opinions of men about what God does and does not do which are not authoritative.
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Joel clearly teaches that dreams and visions are for Israel not for the church today. Further the writer of Hebrews lays out a clear declaration on the matter.

Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Time to see clearly as we are seen. No more partial but fulfilled revelation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#166
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,790
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#166
notuptome said:
Joel clearly teaches that dreams and visions are for Israel not for the church today. Further the writer of Hebrews lays out a clear declaration on the matter.
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No, Joel does not say 'not for the church today.' You are carrying your hyperdispensationalism to ridiculous extremes. Joel also did not cancel God's normal way of doing things.

Job lived in the land of Uz. That's where the Edomites lived, and it could have been before Israel took possession of the land. So this is likely a Gentile conversation that tells how God warns men, not just Jews, through dreams. This was something God did even before the outpouring.

Joel says God will pour out of His Spirit upon 'all flesh'. Peter, in this sermon, says the promise of the Spirit is also for them that are 'afar off' a term Paul used to describe gentiles.

Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Time to see clearly as we are seen. No more partial but fulfilled revelation.
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It seems like you are reading some ideas into the verse that are not there. If you mean that God no longer spoke through visions and dreams after Jesus was born, died, rose, or ascended, that would contradict the book of Acts.

God speaking through prophets was a lesser thing than speaking through His Son, but God continued to speak through prophets. Christ said He would send prophets.

The problem with your post was not rightly dividing the word of truth. Other scripture contradicts the points you read into these passages.
 
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Reba1

Guest
#167
#167
Are the feathers going to float through the computer?
 
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bojack

Well-known member
#168
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
#168
notuptome said:
Joel clearly teaches that dreams and visions are for Israel not for the church today. Further the writer of Hebrews lays out a clear declaration on the matter.

Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Time to see clearly as we are seen. No more partial but fulfilled revelation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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How is this not the church
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 
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Reba1

Guest
#169
#169
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presidente

Senior Member
#170
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,790
113
#170
Reba1 said:
The last days of what? Could it be the last days of the Jewish temple worship?
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Peter applied it in his time. If it applied then and you believe it applies in last days temple worship, why would it not apply in between?
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#171
#171
presidente said:
Peter applied it in his time. If it applied then and you believe it applies in last days temple worship, why would it not apply in between?
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The last days of temple worship was during Peter's days. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#173
#173
presidente said:
That's not an argument for cesationism. I was referring to a dispensational theory (I think.)
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Correct. I'm not making that argument in that comment at all. Nor am I proposing dispensationalism. Not sure of my position on dispensationalism yet. More study required.
 
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Reba1

Guest
#174
#174
presidente said:
Peter applied it in his time. If it applied then and you believe it applies in last days temple worship, why would it not apply in between?
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In between what?
 
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bojack

Well-known member
#175
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
#175
Reba1 said:
The last days of what? Could it be the last days of the Jewish temple worship?
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The last days , when the church began at Pentecost and began to spread .. Until the last day of time, the End
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Jesus or Solomon 9 Notwithstanding thou shalt not build the house; but thy son which shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house for my name.

We are given the comforter 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#178
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,774
113
#178
bojack said:
The 2nd temple did not house the Ark of the Covenant ..
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It would seem that it was taken up to Heaven before Solomon's temple was destroyed.

And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the Ark of His Testament [Covenant]: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev 11:19)
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#179
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,790
113
#179
Nehemiah6 said:
It would seem that it was taken up to Heaven before Solomon's temple was destroyed.

And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the Ark of His Testament [Covenant]: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev 11:19)
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Hebrews 9
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
(NIV)
 
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bojack

Well-known member
#180
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
#180
Nehemiah6 said:
It would seem that it was taken up to Heaven before Solomon's temple was destroyed.

And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the Ark of His Testament [Covenant]: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev 11:19)
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Isn't Jesus God, God's replacement for the OT Ark come to us tabernacled in flesh ?
 
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