Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread
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I think one must make a distinction between the gift of tongues and the manifestation of tongues. You'll agree with me that not every believer has the gift of tongues, to each are given specific gifts (some more than others, depending upon the Lord's will). So, when a believer has been baptized in the Holy Spirit and starts speaking in tongues (as evidenced throughout scripture), you would agree that not every single one of these people received the gift of tongues, right? Just a manifestation as an outward representation (and more) of what just took place.
So then the gift of tongues differs in purpose from the manifestation of them. Here is one obvious difference between the gift of tongues and the manifestation of them. At Pentecost you'll notice that tongues were not translated, no interpretation was necessary. Yet, if you read 1 Corinthians 14 it speaks of the gift of tongues needing to be interpreted with the gift of interpretation. These are both spiritual gifts.
Pentecost, indeed, had the manifestation of tongues that were a sign to unbelievers. Keep this in mind, however, that just because tongues are a sign to unbelievers it doesn't mean that the gift of tongues are not a gift for the edification of the Body of Christ. That is where there is a leap in logic. A sign to an unbeliever doesn't automatically equate to the gift being unedifying to the Body of Christ. So to insinuate that the apostle Paul was suggesting that tongues are not for believers is false. They are not a sign to believers, but they are still edifying to believers (as is the purpose of all the gifts).
So then the gift of tongues differs in purpose from the manifestation of them. Here is one obvious difference between the gift of tongues and the manifestation of them. At Pentecost you'll notice that tongues were not translated, no interpretation was necessary. Yet, if you read 1 Corinthians 14 it speaks of the gift of tongues needing to be interpreted with the gift of interpretation. These are both spiritual gifts.
Pentecost, indeed, had the manifestation of tongues that were a sign to unbelievers. Keep this in mind, however, that just because tongues are a sign to unbelievers it doesn't mean that the gift of tongues are not a gift for the edification of the Body of Christ. That is where there is a leap in logic. A sign to an unbeliever doesn't automatically equate to the gift being unedifying to the Body of Christ. So to insinuate that the apostle Paul was suggesting that tongues are not for believers is false. They are not a sign to believers, but they are still edifying to believers (as is the purpose of all the gifts).
No such thing as a private prayer language. He know our thoughts before they exit our tongues. Babbling in vain repetitions is not how we are heard on High.
Why recommend we need more that was he has revealed? What purpose?
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Mat 6:7
Words both can understand...."Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name".....no secrets
Why recommend we need more that was he has revealed? What purpose?
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Mat 6:7
Words both can understand...."Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name".....no secrets
Do you know all languages? If I heard someone speaking German and never heard of the language before, it might as well be babble. I wouldn't be able to decipher meaning. However, lets take this further. Why do you suppose that the gift of tongues is only relegated to languages that are currently present on the earth and not lost dialects or even languages of which have never been upon the earth? Do you see what I am saying? The error being made here is insisting that the supernatural language spoken must be identical to those present (such as at Pentecost), but in this case, it wouldn't make sense because there would then be no need for an interpreter (a supernatural gift).
I don't disagree that the languages are genuine.
I don't disagree that the languages are genuine.
I have shown you many times yet you are unwilling to repent. You know Paul did not espouse prayer tongues or angelic languages. Paul uses a common Hebrew teaching technique in contrasting the absurd with truth. Today it seems few are capable of actually comprehending what the apostolic Hebrews would have known from a child.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Take it up with God. He gave the gift for the edification of self and the body of Christ. Go ahead and tell God who saw it in His sovereignty to give this gift to His children for their edification that it is "unneeded." Cessationism is what is unneeded because it quenches the Holy Spirit (which scripture plainly states not to do).
Scripture plainly teaches that "no man understandeth him" and that he speaks to God. If no man understands him, why do you suppose that it would be in Spanish, or Chinese? The mistake being made here is supposing that the operation of tongues at Pentecost is the final say of their usage, but later on in 1 Corinthians 14 we see that this isn't the case. We see how it completely differs in purpose, not a sign for unbelievers but for the edification of self and others in magnifying God. There is even a verse putting it on equal footing with prophecy if it is interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5).
I am not saying that tongues cannot be used in that way, lets not limit God (and He has shown Himself to use them in such a way) but we clearly see of the gift of tongues that the person doesn't understand them, they "cannot come in agreement with your praises" the apostle Paul said, though it be "well enough" that you are praising God. However, he was looking to edify the Church, so in this case interpret for their sake.
I am not saying that tongues cannot be used in that way, lets not limit God (and He has shown Himself to use them in such a way) but we clearly see of the gift of tongues that the person doesn't understand them, they "cannot come in agreement with your praises" the apostle Paul said, though it be "well enough" that you are praising God. However, he was looking to edify the Church, so in this case interpret for their sake.
For the simple reason that in Acts 2 the languages spoken were actually the languages of the hearers who were present.
Furthermore. tongues were A SIGN to unbelieving Jews that God was the origin of the Gospel and the power of God was demonstrated by the supernatural gift of speaking foreign languages by the power of the Holy Spirit. When the Gentiles in the household of Cornelius spoke in tongues, that was proof that they too had received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The same with the disciples of John the Baptizer and they also spoke in tongues.
After unbelieving Jews were dispersed from Judah, and after Paul turned away from all the other Jews in the Roman Empire because of their opposition to the Gospel, the purpose for tongues ceased. Therefore tongues also ceased and Scripture (the Gospel) was sufficient to become the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. Greek was the language of the Roman Empire and the Bible was also translated into Syriac by the 2nd century AD.
Furthermore. tongues were A SIGN to unbelieving Jews that God was the origin of the Gospel and the power of God was demonstrated by the supernatural gift of speaking foreign languages by the power of the Holy Spirit. When the Gentiles in the household of Cornelius spoke in tongues, that was proof that they too had received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The same with the disciples of John the Baptizer and they also spoke in tongues.
After unbelieving Jews were dispersed from Judah, and after Paul turned away from all the other Jews in the Roman Empire because of their opposition to the Gospel, the purpose for tongues ceased. Therefore tongues also ceased and Scripture (the Gospel) was sufficient to become the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. Greek was the language of the Roman Empire and the Bible was also translated into Syriac by the 2nd century AD.
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