Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

[BenFTW]

Well, I could very easily test anyone who claim to have a gift of interpretation.

I can speak in Czech, record your interpretation in English and then I will tell you how good you were.

Anybody ready for it?

The issue here is that you wouldn't be speaking in tongues which is what the gift of interpretation is meant to decipher. While no doubt God can work the miraculous and have the gift of interpretation decipher what a person speaking in a foreign dialect (to you) is saying that isn't what the gift of interpretation is primarily.

 

[Speak2Me]

Well, I could very easily test anyone who claim to have a gift of interpretation.

I can speak in Czech, record your interpretation in English and then I will tell you how good you were.

Anybody ready for it?

Those that don't believe in it obviously don't study about it.
1Cor 12 ESV
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The Holy Spirit has control of the gifts, we don't. We must follow the Spirit's leading.

 

[trofimus]

Those that don't believe in it obviously don't study about it.
1Cor 12 ESV
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The Holy Spirit has control of the gifts, we don't. We must follow the Spirit's leading.

Do you have it? We can test it.

 

[trofimus]

The issue here is that you wouldn't be speaking in tongues which is what the gift of interpretation is meant to decipher. While no doubt God can work the miraculous and have the gift of interpretation decipher what a person speaking in a foreign dialect (to you) is saying that isn't what the gift of interpretation is primarily.

I see nowhere in the Bible that tongues must be nonexistent languages without any syntax, grammar and vocabulary.

Of course, I can see that it is more convenient for the one claiming having them, to say the opposite. But in such a case its untestable and Bible says "test everything", mainly "test spirits".

 

[BenFTW]

Those that don't believe in it obviously don't study about it.
1Cor 12 ESV
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The Holy Spirit has control of the gifts, we don't. We must follow the Spirit's leading.

I would disagree here, biblically. You say the Holy Spirit controls the gifts, but as far as I know, there are some gifts which are volitional. Meaning that the gift is operated at the will of the person. On what basis do I make this statement? Well consider these words from the Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 King James Version (KJV)

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Notice that the person speaking in tongues is in control of his tongue, that it isn't something that overtakes you, but is something you either start or stop doing. That the Apostle Paul told believers who speak in tongues to keep silent means that the gift of tongues is volitional (done at will).

Imagine, he is teaching them about order and to not do things out of order. If it is the Holy Spirit who controls the gifts then a person using the gift out of order would be blameless and the Holy Spirit would be the author of confusion. This, obviously, isn't the case. Rather, the gift of tongues is a volitional gift and is under control of the person operating in it. Hence for directions on proper usage by the Apostle Paul.

 

[BenFTW]

I see nowhere in the Bible that tongues must be nonexistent languages without any syntax, grammar and vocabulary.

Of course, I can see that it is more convenient for the one claiming having them, to say the opposite. But in such a case its untestable and Bible says "test everything", mainly "test spirits".

Where did I imply that tongues were "without any syntax, grammar, and vocabulary?" Anyone who has spoken in tongues and interpreted or has had their tongues interpreted will tell you that one word could be a paragraph of information or many words could be but a simple lesson. What is with your insistence of convenience when what I am sharing with you is the truth? I am not pulling things out of the air, but right from the word of God. I am giving you plain scripture, read back through my posts.

 

[trofimus]

Where did I imply that tongues were "without any syntax, grammar, and vocabulary?" Anyone who has spoken in tongues and interpreted or has had their tongues interpreted will tell you that one word could be a paragraph of information or many words could be but a simple lesson. What is with your insistence of convenience when what I am sharing with you is the truth? I am not pulling things out of the air, but right from the word of God. I am giving you plain scripture, read back through my posts.

What you say is absolutely untestable. If you say that one word can be interpreted as a paragraph, anybody can say anything.

Sometimes you say that it can be dead language, sometimes you say its mostly for a private use... it seems it can be anything.

And how do you propose to test it, when it is so changeable? How can you test that "sadafl uadadfa uadfafa" is or is not a tongue with actual meaning?

 

[BenFTW]

What you say is absolutely untestable. If you say that one word can be interpreted as a paragraph, anybody can say anything.

Sometimes you say that it can be dead language, sometimes you say its mostly for a private use... it seems it can be anything.

And how do you propose to test it, when it is so changeable? How can you test that "sadafl uadadfa uadfafa" is or is not a tongue with actual meaning?

Faith.

I was going to just give that answer, but lets elaborate. Faith in what? The Lord to operate through the gifts He has put in us. However, what is said is testable because they will bear witness with you to their accuracy. If I tell you through the gift the secrets of your heart because the Lord is wanting to address them, you, yourself, will know if it is accurate. Also there is a matter of witness and trust. You have to trust the interpreter, and the tongue speaker. Again, faith.

You are trying to approach this from an analytical mind, which is all fine and well but faith says go. It is trust. Peter could've looked to the laws of gravity and the density of the ocean in relation to his body but instead he trusted the Lord and stepped forth out of the boat on to the water. Tongues and interpretation are simply going for it, getting a gist of what is being said and then sharing it. It isn't the gift of translation, but interpretation. If you have multiple interpreters listen to a tongue speaker they could all get a little something different but a unifying message (or theme). It will come in agreement, it won't differ to the degree of contradiction. It will accompany it, if you will.

 

[Speak2Me]

I would disagree here, biblically. You say the Holy Spirit controls the gifts, but as far as I know, there are some gifts which are volitional. Meaning that the gift is operated at the will of the person. On what basis do I make this statement? Well consider these words from the Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 King James Version (KJV)

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Notice that the person speaking in tongues is in control of his tongue, that it isn't something that overtakes you, but is something you either start or stop doing. That the Apostle Paul told believers who speak in tongues to keep silent means that the gift of tongues is volitional (done at will).

Imagine, he is teaching them about order and to not do things out of order. If it is the Holy Spirit who controls the gifts then a person using the gift out of order would be blameless and the Holy Spirit would be the author of confusion. This, obviously, isn't the case. Rather, the gift of tongues is a volitional gift and is under control of the person operating in it. Hence for directions on proper usage by the Apostle Paul.

The Holy Spirit leads in every situation, but we must choose to follow.
I have no gift I can use whenever I want. Just like Jesus, who said he couldn't do or say anything without the Father saying/doing it, neither can we unless the Spirit does or says.

 

[trofimus]

Faith.

I was going to just give that answer, but lets elaborate. Faith in what? The Lord to operate through the gifts He has put in us. However, what is said is testable because they will bear witness with you to their accuracy. If I tell you through the gift the secrets of your heart because the Lord is wanting to address them, you, yourself, will know if it is accurate. Also there is a matter of witness and trust. You have to trust the interpreter, and the tongue speaker. Again, faith.

You are trying to approach this from an analytical mind, which is all fine and well but faith says go. It is trust. Peter could've looked to the laws of gravity and the density of the ocean in relation to his body but instead he trusted the Lord and stepped forth out of the boat on to the water. Tongues and interpretation are simply going for it, getting a gist of what is being said and then sharing it. It isn't the gift of translation, but interpretation. If you have multiple interpreters listen to a tongue speaker they could all get a little something different but a unifying message (or theme). It will come in agreement, it won't differ to the degree of contradiction. It will accompany it, if you will.

Bible say to test everything. No exceptions.

The most similar gift to tongues (prophecy) must be judged by people, as Paul said. There is no reason to make the gift of tongues and the gift of translation of tongues untestable, just based on a (blind) faith.

I suspect that its untestability is the reason why it is so spread and common, in charismatic/pentecostal circles, much more than other gifts.

Other gifts (healing, prophecy) are more easily to be proven fake.

 

[BenFTW]

Bible say to test everything. No exceptions.

The most similar gift to tongues (prophecy) must be judged by people, as Paul said. There is no reason to make the gift of tongues and the gift of translation of tongues untestable, just based on a (blind) faith.

I suspect that its untestability is the reason why it is so spread and common, in charismatic/pentecostal circles, much more than other gifts.

Other gifts (healing, prophecy) are more easily to be proven fake.

There are testimonies where a person was speaking in an old dialect and a person in the audience happened to know it, and they were astonished of its pure accuracy, not only in what they were saying and the interpretation but also too in the pronunciation. I suppose in that case its testable and verifiable.

 

[trofimus]

There are testimonies where a person was speaking in an old dialect and a person in the audience happened to know it, and they were astonished of its pure accuracy, not only in what they were saying and the interpretation but also too in the pronunciation. I suppose in that case its testable and verifiable.

And there are many testimonies that translations/interpretations were false.

But how can we test it specifically, for example your gift of tongues?

Stories "somebody somewhere" are not tests for us.

 

[trofimus]

Lets say I will come to some church and claim "I have a gift of prophecy, a gift of tongues and a gift of interpretation" and begin to say whatever I would want to.

I am sure that half of them would say "amen, amen" to mostly everything that would sound similar to what they are used to hear.

But if this cannot be tested in any way, its a terribly dangerous idea, giving unlimited power to any pretender.

It must be testable.

 

[Waggles]

Pardon my ignorance here, but, from your description, how do you know that someone is "prophesying" instead of just expounding on their understanding of scripture?
What differentiates it? The fact that they are inspired? If so, how would you know they were inspired?

It is often in the quality of the wisdom and consistency of the messages imparted.
I have attended the same Pentecostal fellowship for twenty years and listened to hundreds of gifts
of interpretation and of prophesying at our meetings.
Only twice have I thought that what somebody was saying came more from them then of God.
Others agreed and there were murmurings at the meeting as people expressed their disapproval.
God sets a very high bar. His wisdom is wonderful, consoling and yet often challenging.
There are many references to scriptures and God expounds on these.
For example, Jesus might quote Matthew 7:13-14 and then go on to remind us as a church
to stay on track and not to look to the right or the left. That our walk is individual and to be
measured against the Word not others in the church.

Or, especially the Father, may cite scriptures on the day of the Lord and the end times;
here we are often admonished for our comfort zone slackness and exhorted to get out and
about preaching the word as there are still many people seeking the truth and needing to
be saved.
God tells us that the time is soon, very much sooner than many are ready for. We don't
get specifics like the supposed 23rd September that past by; but rather it will happen and
what are we doing to serve our Lord or to serve the gospel?

Jesus has a wisdom in that he can speak to an entire congregation about a particular subject
and yet as one person with specific questions of concern one can discern that in that voice
gift Jesus is also talking specifically to you - a personal answer.
Awesome.

 

[Waggles]

No, Bible says "when the perfect comes".
You say its the return of Christ. Can you show me reason why should tongues, prophecy etc cease when Christ will come?
Simply some logical connection.

Because when the saints both living and dead rise up to be with Jesus in the air
[the marriage feast: the bride and bridegroom united]
then we will no longer be separated from God by time and distance.
We will all be one and communicate directly with our Lord and God as the angels do.

At present we pray in the Holy Spirit (tongues) because we are still flesh here on
planet earth. The Holy Spirit prays on our behalf in a God-given language with spiritual
power and of great effect. Hence our many miracles, healings and other blessings.

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called
the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;
for we shall see him as he is. [face to face]
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3:1-3

 

[Waggles]

Jude 20 is not about tongues.
If today its only for private good, something is wrong.

Says who?
Not Jude. Not God. Not the apostles.
So how do you pray in the Holy Ghost as distinct from praying in your understanding?

 

[Zi]

Those against tongues, do you not look to the Holy Spirit inside you to confirm it is He speaking through another?
Have you not developed your sensitivity to His communication?

 

[dcontroversal]

I like how cease, vanish and fail are swept under the rug when it comes to 1st Corinthians 13.....the only church to have issues had some 16 errors, was spiritually IMMATURE, and needed 2 letters of correction.....I wonder why all the other churches written to by Paul did not need the matter of spiritual gifts to be covered like they did with the immature, in sin Corinthian assembly.......??

 

[DJ2]

There are testimonies where a person was speaking in an old dialect and a person in the audience happened to know it, and they were astonished of its pure accuracy, not only in what they were saying and the interpretation but also too in the pronunciation. I suppose in that case its testable and verifiable.

If this movement is of God it would not present such hearsay evidence as this. These debates always seem to end this way, claims, claims and more claims and not a drop of evidence where a ocean of proof should exist.

 

[stonesoffire]

I see it as one gift.

Or do you think that gift of tongues is non existent today, only personal one?

No, I know they are both in existence and many speak in the gift and with interpretation in the church. I also believe that one can prophesy and not speak in their prayer language, but eventually will.

Based again on personal experience and what I know others have experienced.

And I'll never understand why one wouldn't pursue something that was given by the Lord Himself to His body for the purpose of ministry. And for one's own personal empowerment by Holy Spirit.

Do you all realize that Jesus moved in Spirit too? He saw in the Spirit, He "knew" what was going on in hearts...wisdom and knowledge...He spoke what He heard...the Voice of God within....He performed in power. The gifts are for this purpose. To be led by the Spirit.