Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

[BenFTW]

For the simple reason that in Acts 2 the languages spoken were actually the languages of the hearers who were present.

Furthermore. tongues were A SIGN to unbelieving Jews that God was the origin of the Gospel and the power of God was demonstrated by the supernatural gift of speaking foreign languages by the power of the Holy Spirit. When the Gentiles in the household of Cornelius spoke in tongues, that was proof that they too had received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The same with the disciples of John the Baptizer who also spoke in tongues.

After unbelieving Jews were dispersed from Judah, and after Paul turned away from all the other Jews in the Roman Empire because of their opposition to the Gospel, the purpose for tongues ceased. Therefore tongues also ceased and Scripture (the Gospel) was sufficient to become the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. Greek was the language of the Roman Empire and the Bible was also translated into Syriac by the 2nd century AD.

All of that is fine and dandy except you forget one thing. You are equating the gift of tongues with the manifestation of them at Pentecost. Let me also bring to your remembrance this verse.

1 Corinthians 14:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Another verse:


1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

And another...

[h=1]1 Corinthians 14:28 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.[/FONT]

And finally:

[h=1]1 Corinthians 14:5 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

What have all these verses shown? That the gift of tongues are not a sign for unbelieving Jews only, in fact as seen in 1 Corinthians 14:5 the gift is meant for the edification of "the church." The church includes believers, not unbelievers, and the church is made up of not only Jews but also Gentiles.
So we see that tongues are not only a sign to unbelieving Jews, and have purposes beyond Pentecost. [/FONT]

 

[trofimus]

Scripture plainly teaches that "no man understandeth him" and that he speaks to God. If no man understands him, why do you suppose that it would be in Spanish, or Chinese?

Because the reason for gifts was to build and support the Church. Not some private something to take to home.

Thats why I wonder why this common usefulness disappeared totally.

 

[BenFTW]

The error in logic here is suggesting that because tongues are a sign [to unbelievers] they inherently are not for the Church. This is poor logic and unsound judgement because we clearly see that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given unto the edification of the Body of Christ. Hence tongues being a sign does not invalidate the gift of tongues as being for the edification of believers.

 

[trofimus]

The error in logic here is suggesting that because tongues are a sign [to unbelievers] they inherently are not for the Church. This is poor logic and unsound judgement because we clearly see that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given unto the edification of the Body of Christ. Hence tongues being a sign does not invalidate the gift of tongues as being for the edification of believers.

How does some dead African language builds American Church?

 

[BenFTW]

Because the reason for gifts was to build and support the Church. Not some private something to take to home.

Thats why I wonder why this common usefulness disappeared totally.

Not necessarily.

Jude 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Now, why would I suggest that this gift is not only for the edification of others but also self? Well, scripture plainly states it, haha.


1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

and...


1 Corinthians 14:14-17 King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

We see here that "the other is not edified" and in that case, who is? The tongue speaker because he is praying to the Father, to God. He is even giving praises, magnifying God. We understand from these verses that a tongue speaker edifies himself but if he wishes to edify those around him he should interpret the tongues.


1 Corinthians 14:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

The Apostle Paul was not against tongues, he even wished they all spoke in tongues even as he does. However, the apostle Paul's emphasis here is not an anti-tongues speech but rather a pro-edification speech, for the uplifting of the Body of Christ. He even goes on to say to the tongue speaker who isn't interpreting or doesn't have an interpreter to...

1 Corinthians 14:27-28King James Version (KJV)

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

... to keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God (which is exactly what happens when speaking in tongues, edifying oneself and speaking mysteries in the spirit to the Father).

 

[trofimus]

Not necessarily.

Jude 20 King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Now, why would I suggest that this gift is not only for the edification of others but also self? Well, scripture plainly states it, haha.

[/FONT]
1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

and...

[/FONT]
1 Corinthians 14:14-17 King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

We see here that "the other is not edified" and in that case, who is? The tongue speaker because he is praying to the Father, to God. He is even giving praises, magnifying God. We understand from these verses that a tongue speaker edifies himself but if he wishes to edify those around him he should interpret the tongues.

[/FONT]
1 Corinthians 14:13 King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

The Apostle Paul was not against tongues, he even wished they all spoke in tongues even as he does. However, the apostle Paul's emphasis here is not an anti-tongues speech but rather a pro-edification speech, for the uplifting of the Body of Christ. He even goes on to say to the tongue speaker who isn't interpreting or doesn't have an interpreter to...

[/FONT]1 Corinthians 14:27-28King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

... to keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God (which is exactly what happens when speaking in tongues, edifying oneself and speaking mysteries in the spirit to the Father).


[/FONT]

Is there any reason why you use the KJV?

Jude 20 is not about tongues.

And whole the section about gifts in the Corinthians letter begins with: "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good." (1Cor 12:7)

If today its only for private good, something is wrong.

 

[BenFTW]

How does some dead African language builds American Church?

Cannot God speak in any language a message of exhortation, encouragement, or prophecy? Mere men speak in a number of languages, why not God who knows all things? It is simply an avenue, the gift, in order for the Lord to operate through a person either for the edification of self or others by interpretation. If the Holy Spirit is giving your spirit an utterance (meaning He is controlling what it is you're saying/praying) cannot He then speak through your lips to the edification of those around you?

 

[trofimus]

Cannot God speak in any language a message of exhortation, encouragement, or prophecy? Mere men speak in a number of languages, why not God who knows all things? It is simply an avenue, the gift, in order for the Lord to operate through a person either for the edification of self or others by interpretation. If the Holy Spirit is giving your spirit an utterance (meaning He is controlling what it is you're saying/praying) cannot He then speak through your lips to the edification of those around you?

Questions like "Cannot God..." are unanswerable. Anything can be filled in.

But let us talk specifically. What reason is there to give you some old dead language instead of Spanish, if you have Spanish neighbours?

 

[BenFTW]

Is there any reason why you use the KJV?

Jude 20 is not about tongues.

And whole the section about gifts in the Corinthians letter begins with: "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good." (1Cor 12:7)

If today its only for private good, something is wrong.

I have to ask, are you listening? You seek fault, but are you attempting to listen? Even if you remove Jude 20, there is still ample evidence to reach the said conclusion. Why point out fault but not address what is correct? The gift is not just for private use, but for public good as well. So it is both, and hence nothing is wrong.

 

[BenFTW]

Questions like "Cannot God..." are unanswerable. Anything can be filled in.

But let us talk specifically. What reason is there to give you some old dead language instead of Spanish, if you have Spanish neighbours?

You are not listening and you're being dismissive. I'm done for now, nice chatting with you.

 

[trofimus]

I have to ask, are you listening? You seek fault, but are you attempting to listen? Even if you remove Jude 20, there is still ample evidence to reach the said conclusion. Why point out fault but not address what is correct? The gift is not just for private use, but for public good as well. So it is both, and hence nothing is wrong.

Why? Because of the use. Its given for common good. I see no common good in today´s tongues. I ask why this main reason disappeared.

Maybe it can help you personally, but its should serve the common good, mainly.

 

[stonesoffire]

Trofimus

you are confusing the gift of tongues which is equal to the prophetic word given by Holy Spirit to a group of believers, with the language of the spiritual man or woman.

The first must be interpreted in order to edifying the fellowship, but the latter is for our own personal prayer times.

 

[garee]

So then the gift of tongues differs in purpose from the manifestation of them.

The manifestation is of God, not seen... not of men, seen

Tongues are a sign to those who reject prophecy making it to no effect through the philosophies of men.. It not a gift to them but rather it shows they have no faith.

Here is one obvious difference between the gift of tongues and the manifestation of them. At Pentecost you'll notice that tongues were not translated, no interpretation was necessary. Yet, if you read 1 Corinthians 14 it speaks of the gift of tongues needing to be interpreted with the gift of interpretation. These are both spiritual gifts.

The gift is prophecy. The sign is they believe not, prophecy.

Both times they were interpreted by Him who moved men to speak and to hear what the Spirit is saying. . If not, its right back to the Tower of Babble neither would understand the other.

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

The circle must be complete or we lose the circular reasoning as a law. .

 

[stonesoffire]

The manifestation is of God, not seen... not of men, seen

Tongues are a sign to those who reject prophecy making it to no effect through the philosophies of men.. It not a gift to them but rather it shows they have no faith.


The gift is prophecy. The sign is they believe not, prophecy.

Both times they were interpreted by Him who moved men to speak and to hear what the Spirit is saying. . If not, its right back to the Tower of Babble neither would understand the other.

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

The circle must be complete or we lose the circular reasoning as a law. .

1Co 14:12 In the same way, since you're so desirous of spiritual gifts, you must keep on desiring them for the upbuilding of the church.

1Co 14:13 Therefore, the person who speaks in another language should pray for the ability to interpret it.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive.

1Co 14:15 What does this mean? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing psalms with my spirit, but I will also sing psalms with my mind.

1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you say a blessing with your spirit, how can an otherwise uneducated person say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you're saying?

I think it wise to stick to what the scripture actually says about the gifts rather than ones own natural reasonings about them.

 

[garee]

If the Holy Spirit is giving your spirit an utterance (meaning He is controlling what it is you're saying/praying) cannot He then speak through your lips to the edification of those around you?

The Jews who walked by sight also required a sign before they would believe by exercise of work their faith. Justifying their own self they stumbled over the cross. Prophecy had no effect on them.

It not what we are saying but what words has he put on our lips (that’s prophecy) He gives us his understanding. Never just sounds without meaning. . Its his words he puts on the lips of the prophets . Other way around other would have to no the meanings .Hearing sounds without meaning does not edify and therefore glorify God?

He did not command the prophets just make a noise along with the words he gave His interpretation.

When jerimiah was informed by the Holy Spirit he cannot speak he did not say make a noise words do not need meanings

Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree.Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it. Jer 1:6-12

The almond tree represents as sign to those who rebel .

 

[garee]

1Co 14:13 Therefore, the person who speaks in another language should pray for the ability to interpret it.

The ability comes in and through the prophecy (self interpreting)he gives us His understanding. Not according to the private interpretation of men , as personal commentaries.

Yes and if God does not interpret it I will be a barbarian to him and him to me. Prophecy is God’s interpretation it is not made up of the private interpretations of men to begin with as if we did need a man to teach us.

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

I think it wise to stick to what the scripture actually says about the gifts rather seeking after signs and lying wonders.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[Speak2Me]

Well just read 1 Corinthians 13:8 again. Three spiritual gifts would cease -- tongues, prophecy, and supernatural knowledge (called *knowledge* but this is not ordinary knowledge). They are all related to Divine revelations, so when the Bible was completed there was no need for further Divine revelations. Those who claim that we have additional Divine revelations today and that we still have tongues are making false claims. Tongues = languages = unknown languages spoken supernaturally by the power of the Holy Spirit. If you could speak German fluently today (assuming you are not knowing a word of it) that would be genuine supernatural tongue-speaking.

I usually like your posts, but I can't agree with this one.
"The perfect" is when we're in our glorified bodies. V12 says face to face with Jesus. We won't need gifts when we see Jesus. How can anybody get that wrong?
Go read a few commentaries and notice they all agree.

 

[trofimus]

Trofimus

you are confusing the gift of tongues which is equal to the prophetic word given by Holy Spirit to a group of believers, with the language of the spiritual man or woman.

The first must be interpreted in order to edifying the fellowship, but the latter is for our own personal prayer times.

I see it as one gift.

Or do you think that gift of tongues is non existent today, only personal one?

 

[Speak2Me]

So many issues, I don't know where to start. So here goes...
Why is it those that don't believe in tongues will say "it's no longer needed, then say it's "only for the unbeliever"? We don't have unbelievers anymore?
ALL gifts edify the church. Paul speaks about edification in all of his epistles.
1Cor 13:8-10 is being taken out of context, not even covering the verses above & below it.
The gift of interpreting tongues is listed. Why, if all it's doing is being interpreted by the unbeliever?
Why does Paul use repetition with the phrase "with the understanding also" with prayer, singing, & praise? Bible scholars state there's a special reason for repetition used in the Bible, and that's to emphasize the importance of a teaching.
I agree with stonesoffire, we need to read the Bible and put what it says above everybody else.

 

[trofimus]

Well, I could very easily test anyone who claim to have a gift of interpretation.

I can speak in Czech, record your interpretation in English and then I will tell you how good you were.

Anybody ready for it?