Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

[notuptome]

Am I correct in assuming that a non-Pentecostal believer is attempting to judge the Pentecostal
experience and gospel?
Mark 16:15-20 is valid and true. Ivan Panin and other Bible scholars have settled this
dispute over a century ago.
Unbelief in these scriptures is the work of the spirit of anti-Christ which attacks the authority
of the Word of God and promotes a multitude of other gospels.

Your assertion that these gifts ended with the completion of the NT scriptures is simply
not true. All nine gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed individually and severally within
a true disciplined Pentecostal Church.
The sign (as opposed to gift) of being baptized (filled) with the Holy Spirit stills occurs today.
This has been going on since the 1880s arising out of the divine healing and holiness movements.
We are experiencing the outpouring of the latter rain in these very last of last days.

Paul in 1Corinthians 13 is writing about when Jesus returns in power and glory to claim
his church and the saints both dead and alive will rise up to meet him in the air.
Then our mortal limitations will end and we will fully know and be one with our Lord.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3:2-3

You are quite incorrect about 1 Cor 13:8. The perfect cannot be the Lord Jesus because He had already come when Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit penned the verse. No Paul is looking for a future event and the only thing that really best fits the bill here is the completion of the NT.

Jesus return in power is a return for Israel not the church. The church goes in the middle of the night in the blink of an eye.

Your 1 John reference has no context in this discussion.

There are many qualified biblical scholars that would contend that your understanding of the long ending of Mark is in error. I would caution you against drinking poison and handling venomous vipers. If you ever really faced a devil you would be like the sons of Sceva.

Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

The longer ending of Mark is spurious! So using Mark 16:17 is not going up cut it!

No, the Last Twelve Verses of Mark are definitely NOT spurious. They are genuine Scripture. Please obtain the book by that title by John W. Burgon and see for yourself that this false information has no merit.

 

[Dino246]

(information deleted)

You've copied someone's personal information to this forum, where it can be found on a Google search. Not cool at all.

Perhaps it was a newbie mistake, but DON'T EVER DO IT AGAIN, FOR ANY REASON!

 

[Dino246]

You are quite incorrect about 1 Cor 13:8. The perfect cannot be the Lord Jesus because He had already come when Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit penned the verse. No Paul is looking for a future event and the only thing that really best fits the bill here is the completion of the NT.

I agree that the "perfect" can't be Jesus (on His first coming). However, there is nothing in the text to support your assertion that it is the completion of the NT. While we have more knowledge than we would have at the time Paul wrote those words, our knowledge is not complete, and won't be until we are in the eternal kingdom. We know what we need to know, but we are still looking 'through a glass, darkly'. Our knowledge certainly isn't "done away" at this point.

 

[Muzungu256]

No, the Last Twelve Verses of Mark are definitely NOT spurious. They are genuine Scripture. Please obtain the book by that title by John W. Burgon and see for yourself that this false information has no merit.

how could those verses be spurious u see. if u take away those verses than we got no great comission in that gospel. hmm. ive seen church fathers quote this too. the alexandrian manuscripts are spurious more like!!!!!! origen said that they are adding and substracting as they will. and he wrote in alexandria.

 

[Muzungu256]

I agree that the "perfect" can't be Jesus (on His first coming). However, there is nothing in the text to support your assertion that it is the completion of the NT. While we have more knowledge than we would have at the time Paul wrote those words, our knowledge is not complete, and won't be until we are in the eternal kingdom. We know what we need to know, but we are still looking 'through a glass, darkly'. Our knowledge certainly isn't "done away" at this point.

yes its not the bible, we wouldnt have these differences if it was.
its the second coming clearly.
people only take that position because they dont wanna deal with spiritual gifts u see.

btw angela u liked roger's post about bible being the perfect but then u said the verses in mark are "spurious" so its not that perfect afterall....... wake up this is a bad interperation

 

[notuptome]

I agree that the "perfect" can't be Jesus (on His first coming). However, there is nothing in the text to support your assertion that it is the completion of the NT. While we have more knowledge than we would have at the time Paul wrote those words, our knowledge is not complete, and won't be until we are in the eternal kingdom. We know what we need to know, but we are still looking 'through a glass, darkly'. Our knowledge certainly isn't "done away" at this point.

The revelation of God is complete. We do not have knowledge like the apostles received to argue with the Pharisees. Knowledge given them of the scriptures without benefit of study.

Context is key to understanding the scriptures correctly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Speak2Me]

I have yet have someone explain to me how prophecy adds to the Bible canon. It doesn't. Nobody has ever said, "I wrote this prophecy down, and it needs to go into the Bible". Not even the charismatics do that.
If you're going to "claim" such a thing, show chapter and verse.
BTW, making such a statement as if it were Bible truth is teaching false doctrine, because it can't be proven.
I'm not from Missouri, but you still have to prove it to me.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You've copied someone's personal information to this forum, where it can be found on a Google search. Not cool at all.

Perhaps it was a newbie mistake, but DON'T EVER DO IT AGAIN, FOR ANY REASON!

that phone # needs to be deleted and prob on the profile as well
phone # not on the profile

going to request that the post with the personal info be deleted

why would someone post anothers' personal info

that's worse than bad etiquette

 

[MarcR]

The longer ending of Mark is spurious! So using Mark 16:17 is not going up cut it!

Why is it spurious? Because the vocabulary, the syntax and grammar, as well as the theology are completely different than the rest of Mark.

If you want, I can go into greater detail. Reading Greek really helps, as it is readily apparent in the Greek. But it is obvious in English, if you look closely!

Angela,

I have a great deal of respect and fondness for you and deeply respect your linguistic skills.

I believe that you are mistaken here. Even if you conclusively prove that the long ending is added that in itself would not prove it uninspired. There is nothing there that is inconsistent with other inspired revelation. That IMO is a more compelling test.

Fondly,

Marc

 

[hornetguy]

I have yet have someone explain to me how prophecy adds to the Bible canon. It doesn't. Nobody has ever said, "I wrote this prophecy down, and it needs to go into the Bible". Not even the charismatics do that.
If you're going to "claim" such a thing, show chapter and verse.
BTW, making such a statement as if it were Bible truth is teaching false doctrine, because it can't be proven.
I'm not from Missouri, but you still have to prove it to me.

Please give me YOUR definition of "prophecy". Serious question.

 

[Deacon_D]

Prophecy is that which is spoken and later comes true.

 

[Speak2Me]

Please give me YOUR definition of "prophecy". Serious question.

A message given by God to man thru a man/woman, which can contain future events, judgements, instructions, warnings, etc.
A prophet is one who speaks for God. I believe a preacher that gets on his knees and prays for God's message to the congregation is a prophet, for he's telling the people what God showed him.

 

[notuptome]

Angela,

I have a great deal of respect and fondness for you and deeply respect your linguistic skills.

I believe that you are mistaken here. Even if you conclusively prove that the long ending is added that in itself would not prove it uninspired. There is nothing there that is inconsistent with other inspired revelation. That IMO is a more compelling test.

Fondly,

Marc

Over zealous scribe.

Do not tempt God. Leave the poisonous vipers and toxic cocktails alone.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Deacon_D]

Some are some aren’t .

 

[MarcR]

Over zealous scribe.

Do not tempt God. Leave the poisonous vipers and toxic cocktails alone.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Where did that come from?

The verse you seem to refer to states: " These signs will follow after the believers" NOWHERE are believers told to follow after the signs. Paul's experience with the viper in Malta certainly validates the viper part; and Fox's Book of Martyrs affirms the poisons part.

 

[garee]

Paul in 1Corinthians 13 is writing about when Jesus returns in power and glory to claim
his church and the saints both dead and alive will rise up to meet him in the air.
Then our mortal limitations will end and we will fully know and be one with our Lord.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3:2-3

It has nothing to do with the return of Christ in Spirit. When he comes to give us our new bodies we will remember nothing of the previous life here on earth. .It will never come to mind.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.Ecc 9:5

He remains in the heart of the believer. The whole subject matter is with prophecy, declaring the word of God as the gospel of our salvation ,as it is written.

Trying to widen the authority to include the oral tradition of men only show antichrists are working to deceive the elect. They will not be believe the lying wonder. The warning is not to add to the whole written will of God the perfect . The perfect author had already come the veil is rent.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Prophecies... the word .Not the Holy Spirit who spoke it he is not missing.

New prophecy after the book of revelation will fail. Where there is those who reject prophecy the need of tongues a sign of those who make the prophecy to no effect, it shall vanish away .

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

For we know prophecy in part and we prophecy in part. We know him who has no form by prophecy .

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When the last revelations have come that which was in part, prophecy (not Christ) shall be done away

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.1Co 13:11

For then the faith prescription needed to see is cloudy not having all the revelations needed to see the whole clearly . But when the last came its 20 /20

Not one mention of Christ again putting on the flesh as a demonstration of the Spirit (God is not a man as us)

The warning is not to add or subtract from the whole /perfect. God has never been in part.

 

[Waggles]

In the end despite all the unbelief of those who believe another gospel and those who
have retreated from the truth ...
I am overjoyed that Jesus himself brought me by the power of the Holy Spirit
to a proper functioning disciplined Bible believing Pentecostal Fellowship
wherein the scriptures are upheld and the full gospel of salvation is preached.
Acts 2:38 is enacted upon and ALL are baptized by full immersion and ALL who are
baptized into the Holy Spirit speak out in a new tongue.

Wherein additionally the whole nine gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for the edification
and growth of the body of Christ.
And where the prophets speaking through the Holy Spirit give so much additional
information concerning the plan of salvation and what is happening in the world.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead,
and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly
gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify
to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:1-6

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the
grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert
the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you
than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel
unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men,
I should not be the servant of Christ.
Galatians 1:1-10

 

[shittim]

This is a teaching from Bill Johnson, whose ministry i have come to appreciate very much, watch a few minutes and sense if it resonates with you. Be honest, ask the Lord to open your heart as you listen.
https://youtu.be/4lL3vVFxG2E

Best wishes

 

[notuptome]

Where did that come from?

The verse you seem to refer to states: " These signs will follow after the believers" NOWHERE are believers told to follow after the signs. Paul's experience with the viper in Malta certainly validates the viper part; and Fox's Book of Martyrs affirms the poisons part.

Paul did not pick up the viper on purpose. Men do not drink poison to prove God. These things are going on in certain circles and they rely upon these verses for their actions.

The long ending of Mark must be interpreted in the light of the rest of scripture. To base doctrine on the long ending of Mark is unwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger