Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[Angela53510]

Where Angela said she stops beliving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
This was the mainpoint of my post.

I never said I didn't believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Just the ones that are not helping the church, like tongues and interpretation. False tongues, is what I would call it, even if 10,000 people are doing it.

CS1 was just creating straw men and knocking them down. Of course, he never found the time to tell us what his gift is. Out of all the gift lists in the Bible. But, maybe he has never learned what the other gifts are!

 

[CS1]

It doesn't have to be well founded as long as it is the truth.

your truth.

 

[CS1]

Where Angela said she stops beliving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
This was the mainpoint of my post.

" I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

how many times do you need to be shown? "Tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Just because that abuse the gifts as they have from the founding of them do not remove the gifts. I said the gift of Pastor from the Holy Spirit and are known as the Gifts of Christ to the church has been abused more than any gift to the church yet it is for today.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit do not go away because of the foolishness of those who used them. Nor does the word of God become error because of misuse of it. Now I will place you on ignore too ok thank you

 

[Aidan1]

" I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

how many times do you need to be shown? "Tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Just because that abuse the gifts as they have from the founding of them do not remove the gifts. I said the gift of Pastor from the Holy Spirit and are known as the Gifts of Christ to the church has been abused more than any gift to the church yet it is for today.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit do not go away because of the foolishness of those who used them. Nor does the word of God become error because of misuse of it. Now I will place you on ignore too ok thank you

So, is speaking in tongues the only gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Aidan1]

" I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

how many times do you need to be shown? "Tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Just because that abuse the gifts as they have from the founding of them do not remove the gifts. I said the gift of Pastor from the Holy Spirit and are known as the Gifts of Christ to the church has been abused more than any gift to the church yet it is for today.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit do not go away because of the foolishness of those who used them. Nor does the word of God become error because of misuse of it. Now I will place you on ignore too ok thank you

So you are not able to give an normal answer? From an Mod I expect more.
Then an putting on ignore list ore an old sign instead of giving an answer of an normal question. Why?
Your answer is saying that speaking in tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit.
I want only know I understand you correct.
Whats wrong with this?

 

[Evmur]

This very much depends upon what your definition of the GIFTS are! There are actually a few lists in the Bible, and no one has all of the gifts!

"We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully." Romans 12:6-8

" But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" 1 Cor 14:3-6

"To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines." 1 Cor 12:8-11

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph 4:11-13

The key verse here is 1 Cor. 12:11

"All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

Not everyone is given every gift. The Holy Spirit determines that. Yet Pentecostals think everyone should speak in tongues!

Why are people not fighting over "acts of service" or "mercy?" Why are people not desperately insisting they have the gift of helps, everyone should?

This is the real hypocrisy! People spend pages defending "tongues," and no one ever mentions the other gifts, except for maybe interpreting tongues and a misunderstanding of what prophesy is!

My husband has the gift of helps. He has been invaluable at our church, volunteering as a handyman, rebuilding the kitchen, and helping at our biannual grounds clean up.

My gift is teaching. I was raised by a teacher, I was trained as a teacher, I taught school for 10 years until I got RA. I've taught Sunday School and women's Bible studies. But it truly is a gift of God, which helps me in many ways.

Let's see all the charismatics identifying their gifts. And I've got news for you- it is only rarely tongues! The church wouldn't run without the many gifts in the lists above. But it would run just fine without tongues. I know, because ii spent 15 years in tongues speaking churches that were nightmares. There were splits, fights, stealing church buildings, and a lot of extremely immature people, just like many (but not all!) charismatics here. I've also been in 4 Baptist churches that didn't have all the people issues, lots of love and friendship, and everyone finding a non-charismatic gift to operate in. Walking away from charismatic churches was the best thing God ever told me to do. No more show-offs and mentally ill people with tongues without interpretation, and no people reading tarot cards or crystal balls (symbolically) thinking they are a prophet foreseeing the future! That's not what a prophet does! And yes, I do believe in the many prophecies of the coming of Christ in the OT. That is why the Bible was written. It is the story of Jesus!

The only folks making tongues the issue are the detractors. If I were in a church which was operating as you describe, all the mental cases, show offs, fraudsters and spiritualists etc I would not stay in that fellowship [you stayed 15 years, what were you doing in that time?] but you can't paint all pentecostal and charismatic fellowships with the same brush.

The Corinthian church had many and worse problems than the ones you describe, Paul did not advise anybody to leave or to stop ministering in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, in fact he encourages them the more to seek those gifts.

I'm not saying this is so, far, far from it, but somebody could make a case out that you and your husband have become proud and boastful about your natural talents, you showing off your teaching qualifications and experience and he boasting about all his fine building achievements.

There are plenty good sound Pentecostal and Charismatic fellowships around.

I once had some really sweet fellowship with a little church of Brethren of the exclusive sort, and I will fellowship with any who are born again. But these guys became interested in the charismatic and one of them made the point "oh I would be afraid that if God ever healed anybody or did a miracle through my ministry I would become proud and boastful"

I asked then if he was a proud and boastful person. He wasn't but if he was then those things would come to the fore, they would be magnified. If he was proud and boastful then he would be proud and boastful of the participation he already had in prayer and in bible reading which the Brethren do.

See this is what has happened in Pentecostalist churches, they have forgotten the sanctification and surrender required by the Holy Spirit, the Charismatics hardly ever had those teachings to begin with. God does require full surrender and that should be the death knell of fleshly manifestations. When we see those fleshly manifestations then the cry should go up for holiness and sanctification and separation from the world.

THAT is the way to go, THAT was Paul's answer to the disorders at Corinth.

 

[Gideon300]

I been Pentecostalist more than 40 years and apart from AOG I know of nobody else who teach that speaking in tongues is requisite to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and even among them it is pretty loosely held. Although we do see that in every instance in the bible account everybody who was baptised in the Holy Spirit did in fact speak in tongues, whether there were Jews present or not.

Jesus says "these signs shall follow those who believe they shall speak in other tongues ... "

That is not the point, the point is why on earth would anybody displease themselves with such a precious gift? Paul spoke in tongues, he desired that we all should but also that we would covet the more valuable gifts.

But if people sniff and scoff and displease themselves at tongues I question whether they will be able to receive the other gifts.

I was baptised in the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve 1974. I spoke in tongues for several years, but the desire went away. The most spiritual man I ever knew was baptised in the Spirit about the same time, but he never spoke in tongues. Some Pentecostals insist that tongues is the true sign that a person has received the Spirit. Some say that you are not saved unless you speak in tongues.

The overemphasis on tongues has lead to many problems and heresies. The wrong teaching on how to be baptised in the Holy Spirit has also led to problems. A friend of mine "spoke in tongues" for some years, a result of going forward at a meeting. She was told not to speak English. She babbled some strange "words" and that was it. Except she was not even born again. I've heard similar stories from a number of people.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a vital part of Christian life. That's why Satan does his best to muddy the waters and lead people into error. Spiritual gifts are the work of the Holy Spirit. God looks for fruit, not gifts. Fruit is eternal, gifts are for the work of the kingdom here and now.

 

[soberxp]

I was baptised in the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve 1974. I spoke in tongues for several years, but the desire went away. The most spiritual man I ever knew was baptised in the Spirit about the same time, but he never spoke in tongues. Some Pentecostals insist that tongues is the true sign that a person has received the Spirit. Some say that you are not saved unless you speak in tongues.

The overemphasis on tongues has lead to many problems and heresies. The wrong teaching on how to be baptised in the Holy Spirit has also led to problems. A friend of mine "spoke in tongues" for some years, a result of going forward at a meeting. She was told not to speak English. She babbled some strange "words" and that was it. Except she was not even born again. I've heard similar stories from a number of people.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a vital part of Christian life. That's why Satan does his best to muddy the waters and lead people into error. Spiritual gifts are the work of the Holy Spirit. God looks for fruit, not gifts. Fruit is eternal, gifts are for the work of the kingdom here and now.

I don't believe it you are not saved unless you speak in tongues.
Unless you put my face on the keyboard。



sfg fghr yju yku yluy sgsx, thyj uyuyy dfgf uyui rgg retrt .

allright, I believe.

 

[Gideon300]

Pentecostalism was founded in the Book of Acts Chapter 2. Men who attempted to rediscover the truths in the book of Acts after the dark ages of Catholicism and the incomplete work of the reformation are not the standard. Their inperfections and lack of understanding does not negate the fact that they rediscovered some actual truths in their efforts. It did not take long for people to correct the mistaken idea that tongues were for evangelizing foreign nations while still understanding that they did have a valid purpose in the church.

Today we can exegete the scriptures and with scholarly authors such as Gordon Fee, William and Robert Menzies, Roger Stronsdat, Craig Keener and others discover that continuationist theology and Pentecostalism is a superiour hermeneutic to ceasationsim.

And the sullied past of particular characters in the Pentecostal movement does not change that. Your premise is erroneous in that you you are thinking that Pentecostals have not founded their doctrine on scripture alone. Most Pentecostals you meet today (better known as Spirit Filled) read the book of Acts after they got saved and as they did the Holy Spirit put within them an expectation of faith that they could experience the same things they read about the early church experiencing and they asked for it and received it.

Most of these will tell you that they never heard of Azusa street, Parham, Seymour or others until later. Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards all had something that you would find to be a mistaken understanding because we all know in part until that which is perfect is come which is when we are resurrected and see him face to face. Parham's ignorance or scandals in ministry does not cast a shadow on the book of Acts.

So after pointing out all the errors you can find in something someone said or wrote throughout the 1900s early American Pentecostal movement discussion is over you still have to look at the scriptures and ask the question "Can I have the same experience and operate in the same Holy Spirit Gifts that were given to the 1st century church today?" And you might also ask the question that they were asking in the Topeka and Houston Bible college, "What is the common sign or evidence of those that were baptized in the Holy Spirit" and you will still find that the answer is speaking in tongues. Asking and receiving the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit for Power to be a witness and the gift of tongues and then going out and doing the work of the ministry like never before, changing your community and the world will be the answer, and you will no longer be interested in the the merely academic argument as to whether it is possible or not.

I would that all God's people were prophets and that he would pour out His Spirit upon them all....

The start of Pentecostalism as we know it today was fraught with error as well as the genuine. Satan knows how to intersperse the false with the true. "War on the Saints" by Jesse Penn-Lewis is worth reading on this. She covered the Welsh revival in the early 1900's. It was fundamentally a restoration of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I've read the book that describes the Azusa Street revival. It was interesting. The cover of the book showed lightning striking the ground with a typical American church building. A friend of mine was unimpressed. He reminded me that Satan fell like lightning.

There were many physical manifestations that were ungodly, much like the demonic Toronto Blessing. Unfortunately many people do not know the difference between the Spirit, God, and the supernatural, which is Satan. I'm happy to explain more if necessary.

 

[soberxp]

Unfortunately many people do not know the difference between the Spirit, God, and the supernatural, which is Satan. I'm happy to explain more if necessary.

Have you ever seen the miracle of Satan?

How do you distinguish this?

Do you know that Satan is among us, those who have been brought up to heaven by God's mercy,and then fall down to earth, mix among us, and exercise all miracle of matter.

 

[Aidan1]

Have you ever seen the miracle of Satan?

How do you distinguish this?

Do you know that Satan is among us, those who have been brought up to heaven by God's mercy,and then fall down to earth, mix among us, and exercise all miracle of matter.

God is giving the gift to distinguish the spirits.

 

[soberxp]

God is giving the gift to distinguish the spirits.

I don't think so,

From my experience, many people are unable to distinguish these differences.

 

[Angela53510]

The only folks making tongues the issue are the detractors. If I were in a church which was operating as you describe, all the mental cases, show offs, fraudsters and spiritualists etc I would not stay in that fellowship [you stayed 15 years, what were you doing in that time?] but you can't paint all pentecostal and charismatic fellowships with the same brush.

The Corinthian church had many and worse problems than the ones you describe, Paul did not advise anybody to leave or to stop ministering in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, in fact he encourages them the more to seek those gifts.

I'm not saying this is so, far, far from it, but somebody could make a case out that you and your husband have become proud and boastful about your natural talents, you showing off your teaching qualifications and experience and he boasting about all his fine building achievements.

There are plenty good sound Pentecostal and Charismatic fellowships around.

I once had some really sweet fellowship with a little church of Brethren of the exclusive sort, and I will fellowship with any who are born again. But these guys became interested in the charismatic and one of them made the point "oh I would be afraid that if God ever healed anybody or did a miracle through my ministry I would become proud and boastful"

I asked then if he was a proud and boastful person. He wasn't but if he was then those things would come to the fore, they would be magnified. If he was proud and boastful then he would be proud and boastful of the participation he already had in prayer and in bible reading which the Brethren do.

See this is what has happened in Pentecostalist churches, they have forgotten the sanctification and surrender required by the Holy Spirit, the Charismatics hardly ever had those teachings to begin with. God does require full surrender and that should be the death knell of fleshly manifestations. When we see those fleshly manifestations then the cry should go up for holiness and sanctification and separation from the world.

THAT is the way to go, THAT was Paul's answer to the disorders at Corinth.

You sure read a lot into my posts that was not there.

My husband has never said to anyone, including me, that he has the gift of helps. He just shushes me up when I say it, so I stopped because it made him uncomfortable. He has never told anyone about his work around the church. The only people that know were the coordinators and the guys he worked with.

When he had the grand opening for the new kitchen, the boss had him and other man go up to the front. The other fellow was a shy as my husband. Neither said a word. The gift of helps is a very quiet ministry! He never said a word to anyone that he did free labour for 6 months there. You really struck out on this flight of fantasy and got it wrong!

As for me, I shared my qualifications to be a teacher, because I have completed the course work and got a professional teacher's certificate. But more important, I taught and was paid for 10 years. Then RA struck me down. God had arranged for me to get my minimum 10 years in, so I was able to stay on disability for 19 years, and then switch to pension. We lived for years with zero money in the bank. When I was able to teach, it put us in a different situation. I praise God that he worked things out for good.

As for 15 years in A Pentecostal church? No, 6 churches. We moved a lot with my husband's work in the early years. We were in independent Pentecostal churches, PAOC (connected to AoG) the APOC (a non-dispensationalist charismatic church) another PAOC, and another move and another PAOC, and a Vineyard church, where the ministry staff told me deliberate lies.

And that is why I complain. I had a good opportunity to see what was going on in 3 Pentecostal denominations and one independent. And every one of them had unbelievable issues. And the solution was always the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only it never was. They were all composed of immature people, who had not grown spiritually in their lives. Some of the pastors were very Spirit led men, some were so carnal is was so shocking. No where did I see any attempt to teach doctrine, Scripture, prayer, etc.

Plus, we have been in 4 non-charismatic churches. One was the Evangelical Free, where I finally heard real exegetical preaching. The pastor was working in his PhD, and it really showed. We moved a few more times, and ended up in 3 different Baptist denominations, including SBC, and I went to their seminary and got my MDiv. Another pastor had a PhD in preaching in one of those Baptist churches and he was phenomenal. Plus, he had a year long pastor-led initiative to get people reading the Bible, and another year long-initiative to work on prayer. If I could pastor a church, those were the things I would have done. There is no way to learn about God better, than reading the Bible and praying. He also taught doctrine. The Baptist church I am in since we moved here 6 years ago has me on the preaching team, and God has been good to give me excellent direction!

Finally, I took a bunch of courses through the PAOC. I found out it was not that these churches lost strong doctrine and sanctification, they never had it in the first place. I recently heard a Pentecostal pastor talking about sanctification. I do hope charismatics move in that direction. I think it would change these churches to have good doctrine! It might radically change the kingdom of God!

 

[Aidan1]

I don't think so,

From my experience, many people are unable to distinguish these differences.

Because they dont have this gift.

 

[soberxp]

Because they dont have this gift.

So be it.
Matthew 7：6

 

[Aidan1]

So be it.
Matthew 7：6

Serious? You dont believe that the gift of distinguish the Spirit is for today?

 

[AandW]

your truth.

First of all, the Bible you're most likely using, the KJV, doesn't even match the original Hebrew Scrolls that have been copied over and over word for word by the sofers since Yahweh handed them down. And concerning the New Testament, the KJV is not using the Hebrew Version of Matthew. And if you compare Mark through Revelation to the oldest known Greek Bibles [Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus] the KJV has several add ins these original Bibles never had.

So it's a true Mystery that you believe you know any truth at all!

 

[SophieT]

what is the most outstanding and obvious thing in this thread, as with ALL threads on tongues (not the other gifts so much), is that the last thing on this earth the devil wants, is for people to pray in tongues

oh he is basically fine with false tongues messages in church and God knows I have heard my share

he is also fine with false prophecies and the prophets who spew them. in fact he likes it

he is also fine with all the false teachers and the false pastors and all those good folks God never called but who thought the church (body of Christ) needed their input

people: if you pray in tongues keep on praying in tongues. I could list many many ways God has kept me and answered prayers BECAUSE I pray in tongues but I don't bother to do that here because of the people who mock and demand proof and basically deny their own faith.

we no longer have the strong spiritual leaders the church once had. we have bizarre fake shepherds who follow pagan practices and say it is the Holy Spirit. right is wrong and wrong is right. However, we also have millions who do not believe in God. Neither of those things make what is true a lie and neither of those things are going to be the excuse God accepts when you stand before Him

I believe God understands those who have been deceived and I was once one of them. Through difficult years, heartache and alot of study, I came out the other end and have had to accept the fact that Christians are VERY open to deception and are sometimes entertaining demons rather than the Holy Spirit.

However, believe the Bible and what it says. Study the word so you can identify what is false and reject what is false.

I am truly sorry some of you have so made up your mind to be against certain gifts to the point of misquoting and twisting scripture and mocking those who have a different outcome in their spiritual lives.

I understand there is nothing I can say that is new or somehow momentous. I have come to the point that I am content to let most anti-tongues people be that way. If God does not open up the earth and swallow them (obviously jesting here) then who am I

I don't think many of you are awake enough to really get what is going on in the world and you are trying to make it your business to deny the power of the Spirit of God whom we need more than anyone or anything else. God help you.

 

[AandW]

CS1,
Instead of Red Xing me, prove me this is wrong [I know you can't but i am here for entertainment of it]:

First of all, the Bible you're most likely using, the KJV, doesn't even match the original Hebrew Scrolls that have been copied over and over word for word by the sofers since Yahweh handed them down. And concerning the New Testament, the KJV is not using the Hebrew Version of Matthew. And if you compare Mark through Revelation to the oldest known Greek Bibles [Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus] the KJV has several add ins these original Bibles never had.

 

[CS1]

First of all, the Bible you're most likely using, the KJV, doesn't even match the original Hebrew Scrolls that have been copied over and over word for word by the sofers since Yahweh handed them down. And concerning the New Testament, the KJV is not using the Hebrew Version of Matthew. And if you compare Mark through Revelation to the oldest known Greek Bibles [Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus] the KJV has several add ins these original Bibles never had.

So it's a true Mystery that you believe you know any truth at all!

IF you think I will throw away my Bible which is KJVNKJVNIVNLTAMP1600 just because you say it doesn't match the original

WHICH WE DO NOT EVEN HAVE only COPIES of them by those who write down from the Original and we know our Bible version is 99.8%

correct, why? Because God carried the writers by HIS Holy Spirit and we have more than enough for:

1. Righious living
2. Appropriate Worship

Human error has not prevented God from Keeping HIS word. WE have more than enough to preach the Gospel message with faith and trust that Jesus Christ was crucified, died, Buried, and resurrected from the Dead as the Eyewitnesses and other eyewitnesses have testified in the New Testament 1corinthains chapter 15.

Your educated mindset if you do not agree with that, then you are unbiblical and unlearned.