perfect

[ed]

"Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father. And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek." -Hebrews 5:1-10.

Jesus is both divine and human at the same time. Therefore, in the one person of Jesus are two distinct natures. This is called the hypostatic union.

In scripture, Jesus occupied three offices: Prophet, Priest, and King.

To save space, here is an introductory article on that topic: Jesus' Three Offices: Prophet, Priest, and King | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Here's a deeper look: JESUS AS HIGH PRIEST ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK

So we see that in addition to Christ's physical death, literal bodily resurrection, and actual ascension into heaven, He has an indescribably important "present priestly session" in heaven on behalf of believers.

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense: Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1-2).

According to John, Satan is the accuser of God's people (Rev. 12; cf. Job. 1-2): "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down" (Rev. 12:10).

In view of this, Christ-our Advocate-counters by pleading (with His Father) the efficacy of His blood, which was shed for our sins.

It is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need-one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. (Heb. 7:17, 22-26).

Because Christ is human as well as divine, He can sympathize with our human frailties: "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the , Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin. (Heb. 414-15).

Since He Himself was tempted in all points that we are, He can, by His present session, overcome these temptations: "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." (1 Cor. 10:13).

This "way out" is provided by Christ's intercession for us and is His present priestly ministry on our behalf.

Many objects possess more than one property. Though you are but a man and not divine Ed: Jesus is both human and divine and this is evidenced by His life, death, resurection and his present priestly role for the believer to the Father in heaven. Your question has been properly qualified, accurately answered, and adquately explained. There is no conflict.

Would you like to discuss the Trinity next *BIG SMILE*?

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
Thank you for the amount of effort you have put into this posting. I appreciate your efforts and it is always great to read scripture.
You stated that Jesus is divine and human.
You have also given the scripture on Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizedek.
So my question remains. If Jesus is fully God is God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?
thank you for your time?
love
edwin

 

[VW]

Ed,

Jesus said of Himself, when asked to show the disciples the Father, Have I been so long with you, and you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father?' And of course, we all know the scripture where it says that in the beginning the word was with God, and the word was God. All things came into existence by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. And this word, Jesus, became flesh.

But even more so, every spirit that confesses that Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God.

When I fellowship with Jesus, my Lord, I know that He is God, just as when I fellowship with the Father, I also know that He is God, and when I fellowship with the Spirit, He too is God. And oddly enough, they are One.

Jesus has been given to have life in Himself, just as the Father has life in Himself, asnd raises the dead to life. But Jesus has been given all, complete, judgment, and for one reason, that all may honor Him, as God. This is the Father's will in this, that Jesus be honored as God.

I say these things not in rebuke, nor in argument, only in hope of understanding.

 

[ed]

If you ever feel that this is a fruitless conversation, let me know. I am willing to discuss it for as long as you would like.

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thanks for your great post. Thanks also for the offer. Yes there will come a time when both or one of us have said all there is to say on the matter. That friendship prevails to me is an important issue. I dont consider myself stubborn on the issue and hopefully further down the track related to this is the use of the word Lord in the old testament. But I feel it is too early to bring this in on a subject which has such a wide front now anyway.
love
edwin

 

[ed]

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thanks for your great post. Thanks also for the offer. Yes there will come a time when both or one of us have said all there is to say on the matter. That friendship prevails to me is an important issue. I dont consider myself stubborn on the issue and hopefully further down the track related to this is the use of the word Lord in the old testament. But I feel it is too early to bring this in on a subject which has such a wide front now anyway.
love
edwin

Hi
I want to thank all of you who are participating. I will be very pleased if you continue. I hope you will allow me this short cut of addressing this question to "a Group" instead of addressing it to many individual posts. I hope you all join in and cover all points.

The understanding I am receiving from these posts is that you do not believe in the begotton Son of God, begotton before creation through whom the world was made. The Son who is the beginning and the end. Are you telling me that this is a figment of scripture and that this "Son" is not a son but God. If there is a Son in your belief then why did God become flesh and leave the Son in heaven? To my thinking the Son, the Word of God was made flesh. We are brothers of Jesus Christ. Are we brothers to God?
Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said," This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased"
Are you telling me this scripture should read,"This is Me etc etc."

I understand that they are One, that God lives in Jesus and that Jesus lives in God and that we (only because we live in Jesus, live in God also. But you want to tell me that we live in God and because we live in God we are able to live in God. Or you are telling me that Jesus changed after his resurrection and just became Jesus. Because sin can not live in God. But sin can live in Jesus. In Jesus our sins are not counted against us.
I am totally frustrated. The evidence is totally and completely overwhelming that Jesus is the Son of God.
love
edwin

 

[Saint]

wait, you believe that Jesus is the Word, right? then why don't you believe where it says "the Word was God)? that's not even saying they are one. that's simply saying that they are the same thing. But to answer your question, I believe in the Begotten Son, but as i've stated before, I believe that the begotten Son is God. It's like how in original scripture, God is refered to as Elohim, meaning Gods, not God. it's like how God has hundreds of names, and "Son" is one of them. It's like how, when He created the Earth, while He was making man, He refered to Himself using plural pronouns like "Us" It's like, even though there is one Holy Spirit, there are the 7 Spirits of God (Revelations 4:5) but you haven't answered my questions that i have asked about your beliefs, so i'll restate them in the hope for some clearification:

You argue that if you can see Jesus, but can't see God, then God isn't Jesus. Did God not come down as a dove for everyone to see? did adam and eve not see God face to face on a daily basis, even a few minutes after they sinned (obviously pointing out that God is powerful enough to show His face), does God not have the power to come to Earth in a form that peope can see? if not, then His power is limited by itself.

and yes, there are paintings of Jesus from what the painters thought that He looked like, there are also paintings of God from what the painters thought that He looked like.

and what do you mean God isn't hands on? God WROTE the ten commandments. twice. God separated an entire sea. more than once. God made it rain for 40 days. God destroyed sodom and gamora. God even showed His back to Moses (probably where you're refering to earlier). God struck someone down, actually a lot of people down. God blinded an entire army. God sent down an entire army of chariots. and did God not come down and stand with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abindigo in the burning furnace? and you admit that God talked to and worked through a lot of people, which contradicts your statement that God is separated from His creation.

and again, just because you don't understand why God acts, doesn't mean He doesn't do that act. You don't understand why God would give Himself something. I don't understand why He would force people who don't marry the widowed wives of their dead brother, or get their sandle stolen, and then be called the sandle-less one. but that doesn't mean that He didn't do it, now does it? (on a personal note, that's one of my favorite stories)

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
Thank you for the amount of effort you have put into this posting. I appreciate your efforts and it is always great to read scripture.
You stated that Jesus is divine and human.
You have also given the scripture on Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizedek.
So my question remains. If Jesus is fully God is God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?
thank you for your time?
love
edwin

THE DEFINITION OF GOD'S UNITY:​

"Unity" literally means "oneness." God is one Being, in contrast to
many beings. There is one and only one God (monotheism) as opposed to
many gods (polytheism).​

There are three related words that should be distinguished:​

(1) Unity-There are not two or more gods.
(2) Simplicity-There are not two or more parts in God.​

HOWEVER:​

(3) Triunity-There are three persons in the one God.

The Scriptures affirm God's absolute unity from the beginning to the very end. The oneness of the Godhead is one of the most fundamental teachings of Scripture. Topical evidences include the theological basis for God's unity and the historical basis for God's unity.

With that in mind, we progress into;

THE BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE TRINITY:

The doctrine of the Trinity is based on two basic biblical teachings:

(1) There is one and only one God.

The biblical, theological, and historical evidence for God's absolute
oneness has been established in scripture and history. We shall now address the second biblical teaching...

(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Three Different Persons Are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In addition to declaring God to be one in nature or essence, the scriptures affirm that there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God, and all have the essential characteristics of a person. Personhood is traditionally understood as one who has intellect, feelings, and will.

All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture. Essentially, personhood refers to an "I," a "who," or a subject. Each "I" in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its one common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness.

That Christ is God is affirmed in many passages and in many ways, both directly and indirectly. Yahweh is only used to refer to the one true God. No other person or thing was to be worshiped or served (Ex. 20:5), and His name and glory were not to be given to another.

Jesus prayed, "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5)-this is an obvious claim for Christ's deity, for Jehovah of the Old Testament said, "My glory will I not give to another" (Isa. 42:8 NKJV). Jesus also declared, "I am the First and the Last" (Rev. l:l7)-precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6. He said, "I am the good shepherd," (John 10:11), and the Old Testament said, "Jehovah is my shepherd" (Ps. 23:l ASV).

Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (John 5:27; Matt. 25:31), and Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, "There I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of Himself as the "bridegroom" (Matt. 25:lf.) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isa. 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the psalmist declares, "Jehovah is my light" (Ps. 27:l ASVJ) Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12).

Perhaps the strongest claim Jesus made to be Jehovah is in John 8:12 where He says, "Before Abraham was born, I am!" This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around Jesus clearly understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming (cf. John 10:31-33). The same claim is also made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

Jesus professed deity in other ways, one of which was by claiming for himself the perogatives of God such as forgiving sin (Mark 2:5). The scribes correctly responded with "Who can forgive but God alone?" afterwards. So to prove that His claim was not an empty boast, He healed the man, offering direct proof that what He had said about forgiving sins was true also. Jesus claimed, due only to God, the power to raise and judge the dead; boldly assumed for Himself powers that only God has; and claimed that he should be be honored as God.

Jesus Claimed to Be Messiah-God. The Old Testament teaches that the coming Messiah would be God Himself, so when Jesus claimed to be that Messiah, He was also claiming to be God. Jesus Claimed to Be God by Accepting Worship. The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Ex. 20:l-5; Deut. 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that men refused worship (Acts 14:13-15), as did angels (Rev. 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, revealing that He claimed to be God.

Jesus Claimed to Have Equal Authority With God. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:18-19).

Jesus Claimed to Be God by Requesting Prayer in His Name. Jesus not only asked people to believe in Him and obey His commandments, but He also asked them to pray in His name: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name...You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

Jesus Claimed to Be God by His Use of Parables. Jesus' Disciples Acknowledged His Claim to Be God. Etc... etc... etc...
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. In brief, the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers.

What scripture plainly teaches is that God has one and only one essence (nature) and that it is not contradictory to have three persons in one essence.

All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence.

Nonetheless, it is clear that there is a finctional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others.

A mistake I keep seeing you make in your posts Ed is not understanding that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all share the same essence of God in an equal manner unsubordinate to each other; however, each member have different functions or roles with some functions being subordinate to others. This is where you are stumbling.

By His very title of "Father" and His label of "the first person of the Trinity," it is manifest thit His function is superior to that of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, for example, is presented as the Source, Sender, and Planner of salvation.​

The Son, on the other hand, is the Means, Sent One, and Achiever of salvation. The Father sent, and the Son came to save us; the Father planned it, but the Son accomplished it on the cross. This is why it is a heresy (called patripassianism) to claim that the Father suffered on the cross only the son suffered and died. Further, the Son is eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but the Father is never said to be "begotten" or "generated from anyone.​

According to orthodox Western theology, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son (see John 15:26). Jesus said, "When the Counselor comes, whom I will sent to you jhm the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me" (John 15:26).​

Their functional roles are as follows: the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. However, they are all equal in essence as God.​

Jesus, as God, in his role as God the son the accomplisher of our salvation makes intercession for us just as the Bible says that He does in Hebrews 5 as our perfect high priest (e.g. a functional role).​

One final word about the nature and duration of this functional subordination in the Godhead. It is not just temporal and economical; it is essential and eternal. For example, the Son is an eternal Son (see Prov. 30:4; Heb. 1:3). He did not become God's Son; He always was related to God the Father as a Son and always will be. His submission to the Father was not just for time but will be for all eternity.​

Paul wrote: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom of God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1
Cor. 15:24, 28).​

The nature of God is the most fundamental factor in theology. Hence it is easy to defend. According to sound biblical, theological, and historical reasoning, the God of the Bible is the God of trinitarian monotheism. He is tri-personal, infinite, indivisible, immutable, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and absolutely perfect and just. Deviation from any of these attributes results in an unorthodox view of God.​

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Now if you'll excuse me Ed, I need to assist a partnership right now in which three partners equally own a business but have different functional roles. One acts as President, the other as Vice-President, and the last as CFO. They need design work finished for their new marketing materials. If I don't finish them on time the Vice-President will have to intercede on my behalf with the President so I can keep the business contract I have with the firm (e.g. the partnership). Peace and God bless you Ed.

 

[VW]

Hi
I want to thank all of you who are participating. I will be very pleased if you continue. I hope you will allow me this short cut of addressing this question to "a Group" instead of addressing it to many individual posts. I hope you all join in and cover all points.

The understanding I am receiving from these posts is that you do not believe in the begotton Son of God, begotton before creation through whom the world was made. The Son who is the beginning and the end. Are you telling me that this is a figment of scripture and that this "Son" is not a son but God. If there is a Son in your belief then why did God become flesh and leave the Son in heaven? To my thinking the Son, the Word of God was made flesh. We are brothers of Jesus Christ. Are we brothers to God?
Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said," This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased"
Are you telling me this scripture should read,"This is Me etc etc."

I understand that they are One, that God lives in Jesus and that Jesus lives in God and that we (only because we live in Jesus, live in God also. But you want to tell me that we live in God and because we live in God we are able to live in God. Or you are telling me that Jesus changed after his resurrection and just became Jesus. Because sin can not live in God. But sin can live in Jesus. In Jesus our sins are not counted against us.
I am totally frustrated. The evidence is totally and completely overwhelming that Jesus is the Son of God.
love
edwin

I think maybe we are misunderstanding the word "God."

Because Jesus claimed to be God's Son, the Jews took up stones and tried to kill Him, several times. They had a different definition of God and Son. To them, (and also to God Himself,) a son has all the attributes of the father, he is equal to the Father. This is why Paul could write about Jesus that He did not consider Himself to be less than God, but emptied Himself of His godhood and became flesh and suffered as flesh, even to the death of the cross, for us.

I see that none of us here are saying the wrong things, just that we lack understanding in the nature of God. And this is really self-evident, because no one has seen God at any time. But the Son has seen Him, and is in Him. A point of interest, Jesus said that He would be in us and we would be in Him, just as He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. But He never said that we would be in the Father. But by being in Jesus, we are in the Father, and by Jesus being in us, the Father is in us.

Blessings Ed,
vic

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
Thank you for the amount of effort you have put into this posting. I appreciate your efforts and it is always great to read scripture.
You stated that Jesus is divine and human.
You have also given the scripture on Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizedek.
So my question remains. If Jesus is fully God is God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?
thank you for your time?
love
edwin

The key is "after the order of". This is drawing a comparison, that consisting of being a High Priest not chosen because of lineage, but because of character (piety), to offer up prayers and supplications. Yes, Jesus is forever our High Priest.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Hi
I want to thank all of you who are participating. I will be very pleased if you continue. I hope you will allow me this short cut of addressing this question to "a Group" instead of addressing it to many individual posts. I hope you all join in and cover all points.

The understanding I am receiving from these posts is that you do not believe in the begotton Son of God, begotton before creation through whom the world was made. The Son who is the beginning and the end. Are you telling me that this is a figment of scripture and that this "Son" is not a son but God. If there is a Son in your belief then why did God become flesh and leave the Son in heaven? To my thinking the Son, the Word of God was made flesh. We are brothers of Jesus Christ. Are we brothers to God?
Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said," This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased"
Are you telling me this scripture should read,"This is Me etc etc."

I understand that they are One, that God lives in Jesus and that Jesus lives in God and that we (only because we live in Jesus, live in God also. But you want to tell me that we live in God and because we live in God we are able to live in God. Or you are telling me that Jesus changed after his resurrection and just became Jesus. Because sin can not live in God. But sin can live in Jesus. In Jesus our sins are not counted against us.
I am totally frustrated. The evidence is totally and completely overwhelming that Jesus is the Son of God.
love
edwin

We believe that the Son of God is God. It is not their unity that make them God, it is their unity that makes them One God. They are ontologically Deity, and we cannot be. This is why Jesus could not have been made God. We cannot ascend, but he can (and did) ascend and took on human bodily form. It is their perfect holiness, their light, their love, none of which we can have of ourselves as they have of themselves, that shows them to be God and their omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence flows from their Divine Nature. We can share, through the Holy Spirit, in the unity of will and purpose that the Trinity has, but not of the Divine nature.
Sin did not exist in Jesus. He suffered trial and temptation, yet without sin. He took on our sin like a cloak to be shed in hell. Now we take on His righteousness as a cloak to be worn for all eternity.
Jesus is the Son of God from all eternity and shares the divine nature with the Father.

 

[BananaPie]

Yes it is true that I believe that Jesus is not God.. What can I do?
love
edwin

Goodness, Edwin, as soon as I read your initial post, I suspected you were among those against the diety of Jesus Christ.

...and history repeats itself. Saints and philosopher have been arguing this very basic principle on the divinity of Jesus for 2 millenia already, so I won't tire you further.

What can you do, you ask?
Well, you know the word of God, yet do you know the God of the word?
What good is Jesus to you if He is not your God?
Savior and divinity go together.
The Lord's resurrection is divine.
The Lord's crucifixion was divinely appointed.
The Lord's attonement is divinely appointed too.
The Lord's birth (DNA) is divine.

Yes, the Bible doesn't say anything about DNA, but it exists; it's real and there has not been another virgin conception (no male DNA involved) nor ever will be. That alone is already divine.

Anyway, I can go on and on mathematically, scientifically, historically and theologically arguing this matter, but I'm sure you can rebutal just the same.

What can you do? Renew your mind. After all, the calling is for "whosoever will." Are you willing to have Jesus as your God?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

We believe that the Son of God is God. It is not their unity that make them God, it is their unity that makes them One God. They are ontologically Deity, and we cannot be. This is why Jesus could not have been made God. We cannot ascend, but he can (and did) ascend and took on human bodily form. It is their perfect holiness, their light, their love, none of which we can have of ourselves as they have of themselves, that shows them to be God and their omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence flows from their Divine Nature. We can share, through the Holy Spirit, in the unity of will and purpose that the Trinity has, but not of the Divine nature.
Sin did not exist in Jesus. He suffered trial and temptation, yet without sin. He took on our sin like a cloak to be shed in hell. Now we take on His righteousness as a cloak to be worn for all eternity.
Jesus is the Son of God from all eternity and shares the divine nature with the Father.

I meant, we cannot ascend, but he descended. Lol--two typos in one hour. I'm sure I can do better.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

We believe that the Son of God is God. It is not their unity that make them God, it is their unity that makes them One God. They are ontologically Deity, and we cannot be. This is why Jesus could not have been made God. We cannot ascend, but he can (and did) ascend and took on human bodily form. It is their perfect holiness, their light, their love, none of which we can have of ourselves as they have of themselves, that shows them to be God and their omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence flows from their Divine Nature. We can share, through the Holy Spirit, in the unity of will and purpose that the Trinity has, but not of the Divine nature.
Sin did not exist in Jesus. He suffered trial and temptation, yet without sin. He took on our sin like a cloak to be shed in hell. Now we take on His righteousness as a cloak to be worn for all eternity.
Jesus is the Son of God from all eternity and shares the divine nature with the Father.

I meant, we cannot ascend, but He descended. Lol--two typos in one hour.

 

[ed]

Ed,

Jesus said of Himself, when asked to show the disciples the Father, Have I been so long with you, and you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father?' And of course, we all know the scripture where it says that in the beginning the word was with God, and the word was God. All things came into existence by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. And this word, Jesus, became flesh.

But even more so, every spirit that confesses that Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God.

When I fellowship with Jesus, my Lord, I know that He is God, just as when I fellowship with the Father, I also know that He is God, and when I fellowship with the Spirit, He too is God. And oddly enough, they are One.

Jesus has been given to have life in Himself, just as the Father has life in Himself, asnd raises the dead to life. But Jesus has been given all, complete, judgment, and for one reason, that all may honor Him, as God. This is the Father's will in this, that Jesus be honored as God.

I say these things not in rebuke, nor in argument, only in hope of understanding.

Hi VW,
Thank you for helping with this topic. I also want to thank you for those quotes which we can look at.
The Word. The Word is the Son of God. Are we in agreement?
Now look at yourself,made in God's image. You also have a word. You can speak. Every word you speak identifies you. If you are angry then your word reveals this anger. If you are loving then your word reveals this aspect of your character. If you are a lying rabble rouser, then the truth of your words reveals this also. Can you see that your words reveal who you are. The Word reveals God. The Word was made flesh, Born through the Spirit therefore sinless. Jesus Christ only ever spoke God's word. Scripture says that those who speak God's words are gods. Jesus only ever spoke God's Words, being the Son of God the Word.
Now I ask you, is there more to you than your word. Does your word know everything about you, eg the time when you will go to the shops. The Word reveals what you want it to reveal. You are superior to your word. Your entire being is more than your word. Your word obeys you. (Unless of course a spirit speaks through you. And God of course even spoke through a donkey.)
1 Corinthians 15:27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself. who put everything under Christ.28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.'
In the beginning is the beginning of the creation story. God lived before this time, but that is when the Son (the Word) is first mentioned.God spoke creation into existence. All things were made through the Word.
Who has seen me has seen the Father does not mean "I am the Father" because scripture tells us we can not see the Fathers face and live. Scripture says that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father not that he is the Father.
love
edwin

 

[ed]

wait, you believe that Jesus is the Word, right? then why don't you believe where it says "the Word was God)? that's not even saying they are one. that's simply saying that they are the same thing. But to answer your question, I believe in the Begotten Son, but as i've stated before, I believe that the begotten Son is God. It's like how in original scripture, God is refered to as Elohim, meaning Gods, not God. it's like how God has hundreds of names, and "Son" is one of them. It's like how, when He created the Earth, while He was making man, He refered to Himself using plural pronouns like "Us" It's like, even though there is one Holy Spirit, there are the 7 Spirits of God (Revelations 4:5) but you haven't answered my questions that i have asked about your beliefs, so i'll restate them in the hope for some clearification:

Hi Saint,
Thank you for continuing. I feel I answered this question when I answered a post from VW. It describes the relationship between words and self and the Word and God the Father. Please come back to me if this does not answer your questions. I believe the Begotton Son is not God but God's Word.
love
edwin.

 

[ed]

wait, you believe that Jesus is the Word, right? then why don't you believe where it says "the Word was God)? that's not even saying they are one. that's simply saying that they are the same thing. But to answer your question, I believe in the Begotten Son, but as i've stated before, I believe that the begotten Son is God. It's like how in original scripture, God is refered to as Elohim, meaning Gods, not God. it's like how God has hundreds of names, and "Son" is one of them. It's like how, when He created the Earth, while He was making man, He refered to Himself using plural pronouns like "Us" It's like, even though there is one Holy Spirit, there are the 7 Spirits of God (Revelations 4:5) but you haven't answered my questions that i have asked about your beliefs, so i'll restate them in the hope for some clearification:

Hi Saint,
I love your passion. oops I have already answered this. I was trying to answer the other portion of this post which is a"quote" Hopefully I can get to it later.
love
edwin

 

[VW]

Jesus is not the Father, nevertheless He is God. Tell me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are wanting to give an inferior place to Jesus. Which leads me to the question, what place do you hold the Holy Spirit? Is He inferior also?

I cannot hold Jesus in a position which is not deity. While He is not above the Father, He is still God, at least in my heart. I know that the Father is the head of the Godhead, while Jesus is the Christ of the Godhead, which leaves the Spirit as the spirit of the Godhead. Maybe we cannot understand these things perfectly, seeing how limited we are in our abilites.

 

[ed]

THE DEFINITION OF GOD'S UNITY:​

"Unity" literally means "oneness." God is one Being, in contrast to
many beings. There is one and only one God (monotheism) as opposed to
many gods (polytheism).​

There are three related words that should be distinguished:​

(1) Unity-There are not two or more gods.
(2) Simplicity-There are not two or more parts in God.​

HOWEVER:​

(3) Triunity-There are three persons in the one God.

The Scriptures affirm God's absolute unity from the beginning to the very end. The oneness of the Godhead is one of the most fundamental teachings of Scripture. Topical evidences include the theological basis for God's unity and the historical basis for God's unity.

With that in mind, we progress into;

THE BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE TRINITY:

The doctrine of the Trinity is based on two basic biblical teachings:

(1) There is one and only one God.

The biblical, theological, and historical evidence for God's absolute
oneness has been established in scripture and history. We shall now address the second biblical teaching...

(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Three Different Persons Are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In addition to declaring God to be one in nature or essence, the scriptures affirm that there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God, and all have the essential characteristics of a person. Personhood is traditionally understood as one who has intellect, feelings, and will.

All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture. Essentially, personhood refers to an "I," a "who," or a subject. Each "I" in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its one common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness.

That Christ is God is affirmed in many passages and in many ways, both directly and indirectly. Yahweh is only used to refer to the one true God. No other person or thing was to be worshiped or served (Ex. 20:5), and His name and glory were not to be given to another.

Jesus prayed, "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5)-this is an obvious claim for Christ's deity, for Jehovah of the Old Testament said, "My glory will I not give to another" (Isa. 42:8 NKJV). Jesus also declared, "I am the First and the Last" (Rev. l:l7)-precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6. He said, "I am the good shepherd," (John 10:11), and the Old Testament said, "Jehovah is my shepherd" (Ps. 23:l ASV).

Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (John 5:27; Matt. 25:31), and Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, "There I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of Himself as the "bridegroom" (Matt. 25:lf.) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isa. 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the psalmist declares, "Jehovah is my light" (Ps. 27:l ASVJ) Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12).

Perhaps the strongest claim Jesus made to be Jehovah is in John 8:12 where He says, "Before Abraham was born, I am!" This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around Jesus clearly understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming (cf. John 10:31-33). The same claim is also made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

Jesus professed deity in other ways, one of which was by claiming for himself the perogatives of God such as forgiving sin (Mark 2:5). The scribes correctly responded with "Who can forgive but God alone?" afterwards. So to prove that His claim was not an empty boast, He healed the man, offering direct proof that what He had said about forgiving sins was true also. Jesus claimed, due only to God, the power to raise and judge the dead; boldly assumed for Himself powers that only God has; and claimed that he should be be honored as God.

Jesus Claimed to Be Messiah-God. The Old Testament teaches that the coming Messiah would be God Himself, so when Jesus claimed to be that Messiah, He was also claiming to be God. Jesus Claimed to Be God by Accepting Worship. The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Ex. 20:l-5; Deut. 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that men refused worship (Acts 14:13-15), as did angels (Rev. 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, revealing that He claimed to be God.

Jesus Claimed to Have Equal Authority With God. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:18-19).

Jesus Claimed to Be God by Requesting Prayer in His Name. Jesus not only asked people to believe in Him and obey His commandments, but He also asked them to pray in His name: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name...You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

Jesus Claimed to Be God by His Use of Parables. Jesus' Disciples Acknowledged His Claim to Be God. Etc... etc... etc...
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. In brief, the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers.

What scripture plainly teaches is that God has one and only one essence (nature) and that it is not contradictory to have three persons in one essence.

All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence.

Nonetheless, it is clear that there is a finctional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others.

A mistake I keep seeing you make in your posts Ed is not understanding that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all share the same essence of God in an equal manner unsubordinate to each other; however, each member have different functions or roles with some functions being subordinate to others. This is where you are stumbling.

By His very title of "Father" and His label of "the first person of the Trinity," it is manifest thit His function is superior to that of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, for example, is presented as the Source, Sender, and Planner of salvation.​

The Son, on the other hand, is the Means, Sent One, and Achiever of salvation. The Father sent, and the Son came to save us; the Father planned it, but the Son accomplished it on the cross. This is why it is a heresy (called patripassianism) to claim that the Father suffered on the cross only the son suffered and died. Further, the Son is eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but the Father is never said to be "begotten" or "generated from anyone.​

According to orthodox Western theology, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son (see John 15:26). Jesus said, "When the Counselor comes, whom I will sent to you jhm the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me" (John 15:26).​

Their functional roles are as follows: the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. However, they are all equal in essence as God.​

Jesus, as God, in his role as God the son the accomplisher of our salvation makes intercession for us just as the Bible says that He does in Hebrews 5 as our perfect high priest (e.g. a functional role).​

One final word about the nature and duration of this functional subordination in the Godhead. It is not just temporal and economical; it is essential and eternal. For example, the Son is an eternal Son (see Prov. 30:4; Heb. 1:3). He did not become God's Son; He always was related to God the Father as a Son and always will be. His submission to the Father was not just for time but will be for all eternity.​

Paul wrote: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom of God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1
Cor. 15:24, 28).​

The nature of God is the most fundamental factor in theology. Hence it is easy to defend. According to sound biblical, theological, and historical reasoning, the God of the Bible is the God of trinitarian monotheism. He is tri-personal, infinite, indivisible, immutable, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and absolutely perfect and just. Deviation from any of these attributes results in an unorthodox view of God.​

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
In answer to my question you have twice written many many words but still no answer.
Let me make it a two part question for you.
Is Jesus Christ a priest in the Order of Melchizedek?
Is God a priest in the Order of Melchizedek?
You have a merry little understanding going on there. " in an equal manner unsubordinate to each other." and " function is superior" To me it is totally convoluted,in keeping with the verbose responses to a simple question.
1 Corinthians 15:27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself. who put everything under Christ.28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.'
Note the words "subject to" Jesus Christ is "subject to" Do you see this as equality?
What really bothers me is why is it so very very important to anyone that the Son of God, who was with God before the creation and through whom creation was made is insufficient . Why do you demand God because by so doing you are rejecting the Son. Only Satan would want that.
love
edwin.

 

[ed]

Goodness, Edwin, as soon as I read your initial post, I suspected you were among those against the diety of Jesus Christ.

...and history repeats itself. Saints and philosopher have been arguing this very basic principle on the divinity of Jesus for 2 millenia already, so I won't tire you further.

What can you do, you ask?
Well, you know the word of God, yet do you know the God of the word?
What good is Jesus to you if He is not your God?
Savior and divinity go together.
The Lord's resurrection is divine.
The Lord's crucifixion was divinely appointed.
The Lord's attonement is divinely appointed too.
The Lord's birth (DNA) is divine.

Yes, the Bible doesn't say anything about DNA, but it exists; it's real and there has not been another virgin conception (no male DNA involved) nor ever will be. That alone is already divine.

Anyway, I can go on and on mathematically, scientifically, historically and theologically arguing this matter, but I'm sure you can rebutal just the same.

What can you do? Renew your mind. After all, the calling is for "whosoever will." Are you willing to have Jesus as your God?

Hi BananaPie,
No,Jesus is not my God. He is my Lord and My Saviour, my Redeemer, my Teacher, my Comfort and in Jesus Christ I have eternal life. How blessed I am that my Holy Almighty God gave Jesus Christ for me that I may live, eternally. Without Jesus Christ, The Word, I could not draw near to God but because I believe in Jesus Christ I am in obedience to my Father. The Son who pleased the Father is my path to God.
love
edwin.

 

[ed]

Jesus is not the Father, nevertheless He is God. Tell me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are wanting to give an inferior place to Jesus. Which leads me to the question, what place do you hold the Holy Spirit? Is He inferior also?

I cannot hold Jesus in a position which is not deity. While He is not above the Father, He is still God, at least in my heart. I know that the Father is the head of the Godhead, while Jesus is the Christ of the Godhead, which leaves the Spirit as the spirit of the Godhead. Maybe we cannot understand these things perfectly, seeing how limited we are in our abilites.

Hi VW,
Thanks for continuing. I feel by continuing we enable the Holy Spirit to join us. I want to post some bits from the beginning of Hebrews. It is quicker for me if I ramble instead of quoting.
God spoke through the prophets
now God speaks through His Son (heir through whom God made the universe)
Son radiance of God's glory, (Not God.)
Sat at right hand of Father. (Not the same nor sitting in God's lap"
Became much superior than the angels. ( how stupid is this statement if scripture is saying God is much superior than the angels. Who needs that explained to them.)
You are my Son, today I have become your Father. ( not, you are a different function than My Function but I will always think of you as Me) It is difficult to understand the thinking being taught.
But about the Son he says, Your throne will last forever...... therefore God , your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. God the Father is clearly the one who is making decisions and yes He calls His Son, God and why not because the Son (the Word) made the heavens and the earth by the will of God the Father.
BUT IT IS THE SON. WITHOUT THE SON YOU DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. IF you say that God became flesh you are rejecting the Son, the WORD who became flesh.
Please I beg of you. Question your teachings. You will be called to answer for your belief. It is not sufficient to say, That is what I was taught. I am asking you all to look and please be sure so that you can say, Yes this is what I believe because I have come to this belief from my own assessments.
Can you honestly say that in any way, that I am rejecting The Son, Jesus Christ the righteous, my Lord and Saviour who was with the Father before creation, who is the beginning and the end who holds all creation together.
love
edwin.