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G
I agree.
Who can have fellowship with God? Only a perfect creature can. Not one little,tiny, atom sized speck of unrighteousness can stand before God.
It is getting serious IMO. This idea of "what are you doing for Jesus?" is infiltrating Christianity. So much so, that most believers have not a clue of "what the Lord Jesus Christ did for THEM."
Who can have fellowship with God? Only a perfect creature can. Not one little,tiny, atom sized speck of unrighteousness can stand before God.
It is getting serious IMO. This idea of "what are you doing for Jesus?" is infiltrating Christianity. So much so, that most believers have not a clue of "what the Lord Jesus Christ did for THEM."
I think the main issue here is that when people hear someone say how we are perfect or perfected in Christ because of all the sinless and perfectionists debates many automatically assume that is what they are talking about. When I look at those who are in Christ though they may see an imperfect sinful flawed person and that is how they view themselves in general that is not what I see. I see the perfection spoken of in the scriptures not they are sinless or don't sin but I see the blood of Christ and love and grace he lavished them with and therefore only see a pure white shining child of God regardless if they do or not.
the perfection that is spoken of in the scriptures cannot be seen or understood with normal eyes, only eyes of of love can see and understand this perfection spoken of. Without such eyes we go into the sinless kind of sight and we assume that is what people speak of, we ourselves were never perfect but in Christ we are made perfect whatever we lack he doesn't.
the perfection that is spoken of in the scriptures cannot be seen or understood with normal eyes, only eyes of of love can see and understand this perfection spoken of. Without such eyes we go into the sinless kind of sight and we assume that is what people speak of, we ourselves were never perfect but in Christ we are made perfect whatever we lack he doesn't.
G
I agree with a lot of your post.
But most everybody here knows where EG stands. And he stands for a passive perfection. Christ made us perfect the moment we believe. All we did was simply believe. If we were not made perfect the moment we believe, we could not stand before God, fellowship with Him and live the Christian way of life(through the Spirit.)
Contentions will come from those who are ACTIVELY trying to be righteous and perfect overtly.......inwardly they are ravenous................
But most everybody here knows where EG stands. And he stands for a passive perfection. Christ made us perfect the moment we believe. All we did was simply believe. If we were not made perfect the moment we believe, we could not stand before God, fellowship with Him and live the Christian way of life(through the Spirit.)
Contentions will come from those who are ACTIVELY trying to be righteous and perfect overtly.......inwardly they are ravenous................
Thank you very, very much for your work here angela!
I read the verse with an extreme sense of...common sense. And I compound that with my own experience of God through His Spirit. And I certainly know that I am not perfect. In fact, if I were perfect, there would be no need for me to be "being sanctified." There would be no need to grow in grace, humility, holiness, virtue - if I were perfect.
Your work here helped me to read it!
I read the verse with an extreme sense of...common sense. And I compound that with my own experience of God through His Spirit. And I certainly know that I am not perfect. In fact, if I were perfect, there would be no need for me to be "being sanctified." There would be no need to grow in grace, humility, holiness, virtue - if I were perfect.
Your work here helped me to read it!
It is totally inaccurate to look at one's behavior to determine whether one is perfect in their inner man which is created in Christ in righteousness and holiness. If we are not perfect - we will never make it to heaven because only those that are perfected in Christ are going to be there with Him.
If we don't understand what happened to us when we became a new creation and we were sealed with the Holy Spirit now that we are in Christ - then this "perfection" thing will throw us off from the truth of what Christ has already done and we are then left with a religion of trying to be better people in our flesh.
Being perfect in our inner man in Christ is not changed because of our outward behavior in our flesh. There are "fruits of righteousness" which come from living out of our true selves in the Lord. These however do not create or maintain righteousness or perfection in our spirit where Christ dwells as one forever joined as one spirit.
I believe we are trying to reconcile the fact that we sometimes still sin with what Christ has already done in our inner man in Christ. The term "godliness" is a better way to express our outward behavior.
Here is a great teaching that illustrates "Why do we still sin?"
[video=youtube;Bi-oq5qBkWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA[/video]
If we don't understand what happened to us when we became a new creation and we were sealed with the Holy Spirit now that we are in Christ - then this "perfection" thing will throw us off from the truth of what Christ has already done and we are then left with a religion of trying to be better people in our flesh.
Being perfect in our inner man in Christ is not changed because of our outward behavior in our flesh. There are "fruits of righteousness" which come from living out of our true selves in the Lord. These however do not create or maintain righteousness or perfection in our spirit where Christ dwells as one forever joined as one spirit.
I believe we are trying to reconcile the fact that we sometimes still sin with what Christ has already done in our inner man in Christ. The term "godliness" is a better way to express our outward behavior.
Here is a great teaching that illustrates "Why do we still sin?"
[video=youtube;Bi-oq5qBkWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA[/video]
Hmmm...I wasn't thinking about my outward behavior as I was talking. I was thinking about my inside. God doesn't really teach me much about outward sinning...but that makes sense to me because it is what comes from inside of me that defiles me and then proceeds to an outward behavior. You can't sin outwardly unless you've done so inwardly first. Eve would have never eaten the fruit unless she first mistrusted Gods' motives inwardly. And no one commits the outward act of adultery without having first done it inwardly. So the root of the problem isn't outward behaviors that need to change. It is inward that the change is needed.
But that's not what the Scripture says - English or Greek, and translators agree that what Christ has done is a done deal:
If what you say is true, Christ Work is only efficacious for the past and the future, but has no benefit during our day-to-day present.
Which would render Christ in us now as no consequence.
That is not the message of the New Covenant Scriptures. Christ is in us; we are united with Him; His Spirit produces His Fruit in us.
This is one of the paradoxes of the Christian faith: That we are perfect in Christ (indeed we MUST be to have the Spirit of Christ dwell within as His Temple) as His Grace is teaching us godly behavior.
Also the term, sanctified, can mean to 'free from sin' (which Romans 6 tells us Christ also did), but more often means simply to be set apart, which we are, NOW, in Christ.
A perfect (pardon the pun) example of how one mixes their theology with Scripture instead of letting Scripture speak for itself.
To say that Hebrews 10 is not about us at all is just silly. Hebrews 10 is a continuation of clarifying the Work of Christ and what that means for those who are in Him as an encouragement as we walk in this life.
-JGIG
New International Version
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
New Living Translation
For by that one offeringhe forever made perfect those who are being made holy.
English Standard Version
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Berean Study Bible
because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified.
Berean Literal Bible
For by one offering, He has perfected for all time those being sanctified.
New American Standard Bible
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
King James Bible
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
International Standard Version
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
NET Bible
For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.
New Heart English Bible
For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For by one offering he has perfected those who are sanctified by him for eternity.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
With one sacrifice he accomplished the work of setting them apart for God forever.
New American Standard 1977
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For by one offering he has perfected for ever those that are sanctified.
King James 2000 Bible
For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.
American King James Version
For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
American Standard Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Darby Bible Translation
For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified.
English Revised Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Webster's Bible Translation
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Weymouth New Testament
For by a single offering He has for ever completed the blessing for those whom He is setting free from sin.
World English Bible
For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Young's Literal Translation
for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
New Living Translation
For by that one offeringhe forever made perfect those who are being made holy.
English Standard Version
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Berean Study Bible
because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified.
Berean Literal Bible
For by one offering, He has perfected for all time those being sanctified.
New American Standard Bible
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
King James Bible
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
International Standard Version
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
NET Bible
For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.
New Heart English Bible
For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For by one offering he has perfected those who are sanctified by him for eternity.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
With one sacrifice he accomplished the work of setting them apart for God forever.
New American Standard 1977
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For by one offering he has perfected for ever those that are sanctified.
King James 2000 Bible
For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.
American King James Version
For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
American Standard Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Darby Bible Translation
For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified.
English Revised Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Webster's Bible Translation
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Weymouth New Testament
For by a single offering He has for ever completed the blessing for those whom He is setting free from sin.
World English Bible
For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Young's Literal Translation
for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;
If what you say is true, Christ Work is only efficacious for the past and the future, but has no benefit during our day-to-day present.
Which would render Christ in us now as no consequence.
That is not the message of the New Covenant Scriptures. Christ is in us; we are united with Him; His Spirit produces His Fruit in us.
This is one of the paradoxes of the Christian faith: That we are perfect in Christ (indeed we MUST be to have the Spirit of Christ dwell within as His Temple) as His Grace is teaching us godly behavior.
Also the term, sanctified, can mean to 'free from sin' (which Romans 6 tells us Christ also did), but more often means simply to be set apart, which we are, NOW, in Christ.
A perfect (pardon the pun) example of how one mixes their theology with Scripture instead of letting Scripture speak for itself.
To say that Hebrews 10 is not about us at all is just silly. Hebrews 10 is a continuation of clarifying the Work of Christ and what that means for those who are in Him as an encouragement as we walk in this life.
-JGIG
I understand what you are saying. Jesus said to first clean the inside of the cup and then the outside will get clean too.
This is where it is paramount to understand about the new creation in Christ. We have new hearts now. Scripture is abundantly clear on this new heart now that we are in Christ. We have been made perfectly righteous, holy, complete in our inner man in Christ.
The confusion can come in because we don't understand the flesh which has the principle of sin in it and it will be in our flesh until we get new bodies if Jesus comes back while we are still alive or we die.
It is the works of the flesh that we think is the real us - but you are not the flesh. The real you is the new creation in Christ - not the flesh. We are still responsible with what we do in these bodies and thus we are exhorted to present our bodies as living sacrifices unto the Lord in Romans 12:1
We are having our flesh act up and religion has told us that it is our heart that needs to be clean and also from the Old Covenant teaching of David's prayer "Create in me O God a clean heart..". David was prophetically looking ahead to the New Covenant where this has taken place in Christ.
We need to have our minds renewed to the truth of what happened to us when we died with Christ on the cross and rose to new life when He rose from the dead.
Understanding what the circumcision of the heart is important to know too as this is where the Holy Spirit cut away our inner man in Christ from the body of our flesh ( which has the sin in it still ) Col.2:11
This is where it is paramount to understand about the new creation in Christ. We have new hearts now. Scripture is abundantly clear on this new heart now that we are in Christ. We have been made perfectly righteous, holy, complete in our inner man in Christ.
The confusion can come in because we don't understand the flesh which has the principle of sin in it and it will be in our flesh until we get new bodies if Jesus comes back while we are still alive or we die.
It is the works of the flesh that we think is the real us - but you are not the flesh. The real you is the new creation in Christ - not the flesh. We are still responsible with what we do in these bodies and thus we are exhorted to present our bodies as living sacrifices unto the Lord in Romans 12:1
We are having our flesh act up and religion has told us that it is our heart that needs to be clean and also from the Old Covenant teaching of David's prayer "Create in me O God a clean heart..". David was prophetically looking ahead to the New Covenant where this has taken place in Christ.
We need to have our minds renewed to the truth of what happened to us when we died with Christ on the cross and rose to new life when He rose from the dead.
Understanding what the circumcision of the heart is important to know too as this is where the Holy Spirit cut away our inner man in Christ from the body of our flesh ( which has the sin in it still ) Col.2:11
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I always enjoy talking with you but I do not find practical help very often by your explanations. I can't ever quite comprehend what you are saying. Maybe one day I will. 
...I too did not understand this at first either. The Lord used various methods to get this across to me. Watch the video and see how things go within you. I'd be happy to PM back and forth with you after you have time to view it - to discuss things if you wish.
I can tell you - once I understood the truth of the new creation in Christ - the role that the flesh has in me ( Romans 7:18 - I know that in me - that is in my flesh - dwells no good thing ) - how that I am not the flesh - that is the real me that is in Christ.
Sometimes now I just laugh at what the flesh says to me now and that "voice" is losing it's power to condemn and also to deceive me with "it's" desire for sinning.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:1 ; Hebrews 10:38 ; Hab. 2:4 NLT
Two kinds of peace
1. Justifying Peace - This is Peace with God, a legal standing. Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:14-15
2. Sanctifying Peace - This is the Peace of God in the heart. Rom. 8:6; 14:19; 15:13; Gal. 1:3
The first is the result of a legal standing. The second is the result of the Work of the Holy Spirit. The first is static, never fluctuates, the second changes almost from hour to hour. The first, every Christian has, the second, every Christian may have.
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. Luke 15:11-32
Jesus makes it crystal clear in "The Parable of the Lost Son" that the man's son was dead (lost his salvation) and alive again.
Two kinds of peace
1. Justifying Peace - This is Peace with God, a legal standing. Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:14-15
2. Sanctifying Peace - This is the Peace of God in the heart. Rom. 8:6; 14:19; 15:13; Gal. 1:3
The first is the result of a legal standing. The second is the result of the Work of the Holy Spirit. The first is static, never fluctuates, the second changes almost from hour to hour. The first, every Christian has, the second, every Christian may have.
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. Luke 15:11-32
Jesus makes it crystal clear in "The Parable of the Lost Son" that the man's son was dead (lost his salvation) and alive again.
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I understand......I too did not understand this at first either. The Lord used various methods to get this across to me.
Watch the video and see how things go within you. I'd be happy to PM back and forth with you after you have time to view it - to discuss things if you wish.
I can tell you - once I understood the truth of the new creation in Christ - the role that the flesh has in me ( Romans 7:18 - I know that in me - that is in my flesh - dwells no good thing ) - how that I am not the flesh - that is the real me that is in Christ.
Sometimes now I just laugh at what the flesh says to me now and that "voice" is losing it's power to condemn and also to deceive me with "it's" desire for sinning.
...I too did not understand this at first either. The Lord used various methods to get this across to me. Watch the video and see how things go within you. I'd be happy to PM back and forth with you after you have time to view it - to discuss things if you wish.
I can tell you - once I understood the truth of the new creation in Christ - the role that the flesh has in me ( Romans 7:18 - I know that in me - that is in my flesh - dwells no good thing ) - how that I am not the flesh - that is the real me that is in Christ.
Sometimes now I just laugh at what the flesh says to me now and that "voice" is losing it's power to condemn and also to deceive me with "it's" desire for sinning.
I'm laughing at your last paragraph. I bought a quart of pork lo mein last week. I was going to vedge out and read a book I was really in to. No sooner had I sat down to eat than my sister came in the front door yelling hello. My first thought was to hide the lo mein. I laughed and said: shut up or I'll give her ALL of it! HAHA!
The operation word being "being" sanctified. Or, if we are already perfect, then why on earth why would we even need to read the Bible? We would not need instruction. All those sin lists of warning by Paul to people in the church, would have nothing to do with us.
It must be great to be able to sit back, kick it up and be perfect. As for me, I know I am a continuing work in progress. I am so grateful for the perfect life and death of Jesus on the cross. And that my hope for perfection is in eternity.
We are neither sinless, (as per the sinless perfection people) nor perfect (as per the hyper grace crowd). That is not real, not Biblical and certainly not the truth.
I am glad Christ is constantly changing me through the Holy Spirit. There is no instant sanctification or perfection, as Hebrews 10:14 so clearly points out. Yes, glorification is what I look forward to as the end goal of walking with Christ.
There is a lot of "speculation" in there. So dead means to lose one's salvation? If you have a son - if he dies - does he become NOT a son to you even though he is not here anymore?...and you not able to "be with him now"?
The prodigal was away from his father and thus in the jewish culture - they are deemed as being dead to them. To equate that to losing one's salvation as in going to heaven because of Christ's work - is negating the words of Jesus that said the Holy Spirit will be with us forever. John 14:16 and that Jesus Himself would never leave nor forsake us.
Paul said that the Holy Spirit is sealed in us for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 and 4:30.
2 John 1-2 says that the truth which is in is will be with us forever. The Holy spirit is the Spirit of truth.
The son always remains a son and we are sons of God because of Christ 's work. Just because the prodigal son separated himself from being with his father - that didn't take away his sonship. Being alive again is in physically being with his father. The father never once stopped being his father despite the son's attitude towards the father.