Perfected forever

Angela53510 · Oct 8, 2016

Here, let me fix this for you. The part you seemed to have missed in my post.

JGIG said:

Of course, the bad translation by KJV of "are being sanctified" started this very bad theology. We are positionally justified. We are BEING sanctified, and we will be perfect both in position and in fact when we are glorified. Really amazing how many Bibles follow after the error of the KJV.

You can go back over the Greek I posted about this, or maybe I will just post it again, so you don't have to search for the post.It is about BEING sanctified. And that is the truth! We are not perfect now! I just can't believe everyone somehow thinks they are perfect now. What a delusion!

"The two verbs are very important and they work together. τετελείωκεν or teleleioken is a Perfect Active Indicative. It means to complete or perfect. It indicates a one time event (Jesus sacrifice on the cross) with a continuing result completed in the process of the participle ἁγιαζομένους or ayiazomenous. This verb is in the Present Passive and is a Participle and means "to be sanctified." So it works together with the verb teleleioken to point to the sacrifice of Jesus - that is perfect! And the fact that we are in the process of being made holy."

Stunnedbygrace · Oct 8, 2016

Gr8grace said:

It was Dark Night of The Soul, by John of the Cross.

Gr8grace · Oct 8, 2016

Angela53510 said:

With all your studies of the original language..............you don't see that rewards,rank,eternal blessings,crowns,precious stones,a new name,exclusive parties in the garden of God and the right to eat from the tree of life are at stake?

Really? You don't think this is what the word is talking about when it tells us to "work out our OWN salvation?"

It is all for salvation? The Gospel/salvation is ALL of the bible?

Adstar · Oct 8, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

We are Deemed perfectly acceptable.. We are Deemed sinless because out sins are covered by the Blood of our LORD Jesus Christ.. It is an Imputed Righteousness Not and actual sinless righteousness in our flesh in this present life time... We are not suddenly conformed to the image of our LORD Jesus at the moment we believe Him and trust in His atonement for our sins.. That will happen on the Day of the resurrection..

I find it actually absolutely amazing that Anyone could stand up and claim that they are currently without sin and living a sinless life today...

People who teach this (that they are sinless from the moment they are saved) and are not living it are condemned by their own teaching.. They should know within a day that they are failing their own doctrine.. What kind of delusion must be within the minds of those that preach this boggles my mind....

Grace777x70 · Oct 8, 2016

People are confusing the work of Christ in our new creation ( our true self in Christ ) with godliness ( our outward behavior ).

If our new man in Christ is not perfect now - then we are hopeless but the truth is we are working out what already is inside of us that are in Christ to manifest in our outward behavior.

To confuse our behavior with being perfected in our spirit where Christ Himself lives is what can cause all kinds of mis-understandings.

Scripture is abundantly clear that we are now sanctified which means "set apart" and in context in scripture - it is always used for "set apart for use".

We are both "set apart" in our inner man in Christ - which is created in righteousness and holiness and are being set apart in our behavior for use. The two are not mutually exclusive. They can happily co-exist and in fact do.

Confuse the two and we will have mis-understandings all the way around.

We are perfected in our hearts - because of the new creation in Christ BUT our minds are being renewed to the truth of the gospel and thus our outward behavior is being transformed by the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 3:17-18.

So, the answer is simple - we are perfect in our inner man in Christ and we also have this flesh to deal with and none of us are "perfect in our flesh". Not understanding this truth causes us to mix up some of both of the parts and we end up with a new religion. Let's just keep our eyes on Christ and He will manifest in our lives. Without Him - we can do nothing.

MessageOfTheCross · Oct 8, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

The Believer Faith that is maintained exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work daily is sealed for the day of redemption. There is a huge difference in having the Letter (in the head) vs. the Spirit (in the heart=soul).

The sheep can wonder off and get lost (Matthew 18:11-14), (Luke 15:3-7), (Matthew 26:31).

Matthew 18:14 says, "Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." (Proclaims the fact that a Believer can cease to believe and, therefore, become an unbeliever; if so, such a one will be lost; this shows the preciousness of the soul.)

lastofall · Oct 9, 2016

perfect means "of full age" or "mature", it does not mean as the vanity of the some mind's wish it to mean, that somehow they are now without sin, without the flesh anymore, as if they never need to repent anymore when they once and again sin. Such an idea or concept is a cheap no cost faith which is secular, carnally minded, as the unbelieving world would have it to be. For even when we reach a "perfect" state, which is a mature state, we shall still know we can never be good enough on our own, but will know that our righteousness is as filthy rages before the Lord.

miknik5 · Oct 9, 2016

You are discussing two things.
Sanctification and conformation

one is a positional work and is based on belief in CHRIST's WORK
The other is an on-going work and a process; and it is CHRIST working in us

miknik5 · Oct 9, 2016

Hebrews also talks about the "One who makes men holy"

as as well as the TRUUH that we are to be holy as HE IS HOLY;

We are sanctified by HIM who sanctified HIMSELF for us...but that ongoing work, is GOD conforming is to the IMAGE of HIS SON

And that is an on-going work and the workmanship of GOD

Grace777x70 · Oct 9, 2016

It is Christ Himself that has perfected us in our spirits - where the new creation occurred - where we were created in righteousness and holiness. This is where we as believers in Christ are made one in the spirit.

As Jesus is - so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17 ( This does NOT mean we are perfect in our flesh in all our actions and thoughts because we still have the flesh with us )

Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

[SUP]24 [/SUP] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Stunnedbygrace · Oct 9, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I do not see true godliness as my outward behavior. If this were the case, Miss Manners would be very godly. But she may be an atheist for all I know. Good manners do not fix the problem of my ego/self-love. They merely conceal it.

True godliness is inward and then the outward just follows. But an atheist can be very polite outwardly while plotting how to murder you inwardly.

I am aware that you probably think there is something not quite right in what I am saying, but Jesus did not speak harshly to men because their inside was good and their outside just wasn't matching up.

If a man is good in his heart, inwardly, his outward behavior will simply be good too. But it seems to me like you are saying that after he meets God and receives the Holy Spirit, his inside is good but for some reason his outward behavior has not followed suit. This seems to say, he then has an outward problem that does not allow his inward holiness to be seen.

I guess on this thing, we actually are oceans apart. Jesus didn't chide men to make their outside look godly. He chided them for being liars and deceivers who wanted others to think they were godly BY their outside display, when inwardly, they were no such thing as they strove to portray. He wasn't having a problem with their sin - he knew it was there. He was having a problem with their lying. Their hypocrisy.

This is so crucial a matter because it is not walking in truth. If a man is never brought to see what is inside him he's never going to completely surrender himself to God. God doesn't begin by saying: we will clean your inside, in one fell swoop, and then we will work on your outside and get it to match up. Instead He says, walk in truthfulness and do not fear death because you will not pay the penalty for your sin, and I will take care of it all.

I don't know if that's coming out clearly. He doesn't want that men should deny what is in them as if it's not there. He wants them to see and admit that it's there and then He can do something about it. All we have to do is be truthful about it and look to Him to fix it.

It makes no sense to deny it's there inside. Not having to pay the penalty for it is meant to encourage truthfulness. It is not truthfulness for me to say it's not there inside me, in my heart. I plainly see that it is. It rises up and tries to get me to seek preeminence. Saying that I am holy in my heart would be a lie.

It's like this: a childs face is completely smeared in chocolate. It's even in their hair and eyebrows. Yet the child keeps insisting they did NOT eat the cookies. The parent tries to get the child to admit the truth but it is not going to happen because of fear of punishment. Then the parent tries a different tack and says, I want you to tell the truth. I promise you won't be punished. But you have to admit the truth. Then the child latches onto that promise to not be punished and then there is no reason to lie any more and so the child freely admits what they did.

The way you describe it seems backwards to me.
Good morning, by the way!

Grace777x70 · Oct 9, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

Good morning...!

I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately we still have the flesh to contend with while in this earth which is why we need to grow in the things of the Lord. The flesh still is there with the law of sin in it and this sin in our flesh is deceiving us if we listen to it's voice.

I agree with you that people can have the "appearance" of being good but they are not that way inwardly which Jesus talked about.

How does the inside of a believer get clean and righteous? By faith in what Christ has done. If we don't understand the new birth in Christ and the fact that we are completely new creations in Him - we will be confusing the "sin" in our flesh and "it's desires" for our own.

Jesus exposed the need of people to be clean from their core - their heart. Only His blood has done that. When we awake to who we truly are now in Christ - sinning will fall off us like dead leaves on a tree. Paul says to "Awake to righteousness and sin not" Awake means to "come to your true self - sober up to who you are". 1 Cor. 15:34

We have a new heart - but if our minds are not renewed to this truth - than we will be constantly trying to clean up the flesh which is impossible to do. Paul says to be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on Christ which has been created in the likeness of God in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23-24 ( This is talking about the new man in Christ - the new creation )

I know that in the kingdom of God there are lot's of things that "seem backwards" from our own natural way of thinking that we have in this world. His ways are not our ways.

Not understanding the new creation in Christ has been in my life a source of confusion and until I learned about this truth -I lived in defeat and tried to "live the Cristian" life but failed. Jesus said "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" To me it was when I "knew" the truth about the new creation - that is when my real life in Christ started to flourish.

Here is a great teaching on the "new heart". Listen to it and let me know what you think.

[video]https://andrewfarley.org/videos/the-truth-about-your-heart-july/[/video]

Here is a follow-up about the new creation in Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2alYO_Wr720

miknik5 · Oct 9, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

I do not get lately how people do not take the word of God literally as it says, and deny we are perfected the moment we trust Christ, and are born of his spirit.

Heb 10; 14For by one offering he has PERFECTED forever those who are being sanctified.

did the author mean it or not.

I mean, who are the ones who are being sanctified?

1. The world? No. The word we are told is dead
2. The Lost? No, The lost still need to be found
3. The pagan? No
4. The jew lost in Judaism? No
5. The muslim following Muhamad?
6. The hundu, the (insert what ever world religion I have missed)
7. The false prophets of christianity?
8. The false teachers?
9. The one who is in church, but have not yet repented and come to faith of Christ?

I doubt very seriously anyone would say any of these people are in the process of being sanctified (made into the image of Christ)

so then, who is it that the author of hebrews is talking about, that are perfected forever?

Hebrews 10 goes on to tell you who they are

miknik5 · Oct 9, 2016

Put another way:
Does Adam sanctify?
or is it CHRIST who sanctifies?
and are all "Adams" sanctified?

valiant · Oct 9, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Here, let me fix this for you. The part you seemed to have missed in my post.

Of course, the bad translation by KJV of "are being sanctified" started this very bad theology. We are positionally justified. We are BEING sanctified, and we will be perfect both in position and in fact when we are glorified. Really amazing how many Bibles follow after the error of the KJV.

You can go back over the Greek I posted about this, or maybe I will just post it again, so you don't have to search for the post.It is about BEING sanctified. And that is the truth! We are not perfect now! I just can't believe everyone somehow thinks they are perfect now. What a delusion!

"The two verbs are very important and they work together. τετελείωκεν or teleleioken is a Perfect Active Indicative. It means to complete or perfect. It indicates a one time event (Jesus sacrifice on the cross) with a continuing result completed in the process of the participle ἁγιαζομένους or ayiazomenous. This verb is in the Present Passive and is a Participle and means "to be sanctified." So it works together with the verb teleleioken to point to the sacrifice of Jesus - that is perfect! And the fact that we are in the process of being made holy."

Sanctification is threefold.

We are sanctified once for all when we become Christians (1 Cor 1.2; 6.11; Heb 2.11)

We are being sanctified as a process, as God continues to make us holy (Ephe 5.25-27; 1 Thess 5.23; Heb 10.14).

We will one day be completely sanctified (1 Thess 4.3)

notmyown · Oct 9, 2016

valiant said:

greetings, valiant! i was just about to drag this post you made from that other thread to this one.

thanks for saving me the effort; i am eager to get to church!

Stunnedbygrace · Oct 9, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I will address where distinctions between how you see it and how I see it are very glaringly clear to me.
In your third paragraph you say to become clean and righteous inside we need only to trust in Christs' finished work. I see His finished work as dying to take away my paying the penalty of my sin. That is finished. I don't think His work stopped there. Me being sanctified is His further and continuing work, through His Spirit in me.

I do not believe as you do that "His blood cleaned my heart." I believe His blood did away with the righteous command that I must die.

The reason I do not believe that His Blood cleaned my heart and made it spotless is because my heart is NOT spotless and this is apparent and very clear to me. He has shown me it very clearly. And the result has been humbling and has made me see that nothing short of complete dependence on Him to fix it will work.

miknik5 · Oct 9, 2016

valiant said:

Let's discuss the FIRST "step" in this three fold process

miknik5 · Oct 9, 2016

I sanctifiy myself for "them"?

who are these who are sanctified?

is everyone ....sanctified?

miknik5 · Oct 9, 2016

Is the whole world sanctified

Perfected forever

Senior Member

Senior Member

Gr8grace

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member