Perfection?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S

Saint

Guest
#21
Scripture tells us we can live a live of perfect holiness without sin which I will get to in my next post. However we cannot be completely perfect as in out bodies are growing old, but we can perfect our minds, our thoughts, our hearts, our spirits, our actions.
You got a bad translation there buddy.
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Even Jesus was offensive at time, are you claiming He was not perfect?

This is before salvation. We have all sinned that does not mean we need to continue to sin.

To the first, the last part of that chapter was talking about our mind and hearts and spirits, not our physical body.

To the second, i'm not about to get into another argument about translations, so I'll just say OK

To the last, i wasn't referring to the part that says that we all sin, I was referring to the part that says that we fall short of the glory of God.

Oh, and you didn't answer my 1 Corinthians 9:25 thing
 
S

Saint

Guest
#22
Why strive to become something you know for a fact to can never become?
Why imitate your dad when you know you never will be exactly like him? because you love him, and he loves it when you try to be like him.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#23
1 Corinthians 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
Well i do not know how this pertains to the convo in hand, but Paul is referring to the olympics, and how their crown faded away being that is was just twigs, and leaves twisted together, but our prize for enduring in faith will never perish away.

P.S. I do not know how this pertains to our discussion.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#24
Why imitate your dad when you know you never will be exactly like him? because you love him, and he loves it when you try to be like him.
But i believe i can obtain perfection/sinlessness. I believe that I can become just like jesus after all it is Jesus in me that will accomplish this.
 
Y

yahweh_is4me

Guest
#25
Hey Robo can u extend the edit timer to more than 5 mins :) thanks
We should pray to God every day to forgive us for any Ill thoughts we may have toward others, and in that if we are to correct (not judge) any person, that we may be able to do that with Love and understanding just as you would with a child, instead of out of hatred or selfishness.
Yes I could not say it better myself !!!!
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#26
The Bible says that if you are born of God you cannot sin.

The Bible says if you are led of the Spirit you cannot sin.

The truth is that a Spirit led life cannot sin and will be like Jesus for you will be doing the things the Spirit wants and not what the flesh wants.

Jesus said be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect which is attainable or else Jesus would not of said it.It is attainable by having the Holy Spirit.

The perfection that Jesus is talking about is Jesus Himself who is a sinless man and perfect in morals and love for people.

We have to be perfect in love which we can do by the Holy Spirit.

Do not be deceived by people who say we are only human and can never abstain from all sin for the Bible says a Spirit led life will not sin,which I have seen that lifestyle inadequate in the majority of people who claim Christianity.

That is why Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord will make it to heaven but only those who do the will of the Father,which is to be led of the Spirit and abstaining from all sin.

Matt
 
S

Saint

Guest
#27
All of the previous verses have told me is that we shouldn't sin and that God will help us not to. And then, on those last 2, it says that we will be given the pure linens, not that we will arive with them.

Ecclesiastes 7:20-For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

In mark 10:17-18 we see that only God is good, so people are not only not perfect, but we are not good either.

I was planning on writing more, but my computer will fry do to this heat, so i will do more research into this and get back to you. Till then.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#28
Well i do not know how this pertains to the convo in hand, but Paul is referring to the olympics, and how their crown faded away being that is was just twigs, and leaves twisted together, but our prize for enduring in faith will never perish away.

P.S. I do not know how this pertains to our discussion.
i'll explain later when my computer is not in danger of breaking.
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#29
Nobody is good because of the flesh,and the Bible says there is no good things that dwells in the flesh.Nobody before they had the Spirit could be good all the time.

God is only good for we are in flesh and in the flesh dwelleth no good thing,but with the Spirit we are going by what the Spirit wants and not what the flesh wants so we become sinless.

We cannot do good all the time but by the Spirit we can do good all the time.

Most people when they say we cannot be sinless are stating that because they want to dabble in sin and believe that they can still make it to heaven,or they want a low pressure walk with God where they do not have to worry too much about doing right all the time.

The Bible says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling,because we have to ensure our salvation by allowing the Spirit to lead us to be sinless like Jesus.There is no excuse for if the man Christ Jesus was sinless then all can be sinless and is required to obtain salvation.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother(1 John 3:9-10).


8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his(Romans 8:8-9).


24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit(Galatians 5:24-25).
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh(Galatians 5:16).

Matt
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#30
You are justified before God if you are in Christ. You are not a sinless being; however, nor are you a god. If you honestly believe you are a sinless god then you are under a heavy delusion.

The rest of us shall, as God intends, continue along the path of sanctification with His assistance and grace secure in the knowledge that in Christ we are justified. God bless.
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#31
Nobody is God but God Himself.Nobody can be God but God Himself.Nobody can even be a demi-god.We can be sinless like the man Christ Jesus if we are led of the Spirit but we can never be a god or like a god.

The Bible clearly states that if you are born of God you cannot sin and this is how the children of the devil and the children of God are known.

For some people it may take longer than other people to allow the Spirit to lead them.The Bible says in the last days they will have a form of godliness;but deny the Spirit leading them,ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth that they have to abstain from sin,lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.

There are so many people today that still hold unto fleshy pleasures,while they claim to be with Christ,and do not like to believe that they can be good all the time by the Spirit.

We cannot be sinless but if we are led of the Spirit we will not be sin.Even when we are led of the Spirit we are not sinless but by the Spirit we will not sin,but we put away the ways of the flesh.

Paul said when he wants to do good there is evil still present with him.The flesh will still want it's way but it is only a temptation and not sin unless we act on it.

The flesh is always sinful whether we are led of the Spirit or not but by the Spirit we will not sin and put away the deeds of the flesh.

Matt
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#32
Wrong mpaper. You are not leading a perfect life devoid of any and all sin whatsoever. If I followed you around I would sooner or later see you sin. But of course I would.

"Most of use are quite conscious of sinning from time to time. Does this mean that we are not born of God? If we read three verses earlier, in 1 John 3:6 we find “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” This sounds even worse. Even stranger is the fact that in this very context the elder can write, “This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence” (1 Jn 3:19). These passages are hardly likely to set our hearts at rest! Could they mean that if we sin after our conversion or baptism we are ****ed (as was thought by some in the period of the church fathers)? If not, what do these passages mean? How can we truly set our hearts at rest?

This passage, which includes the whole of 1 John 3:2–10, is quite difficult, and there have been a number of solutions suggested:

1. One group of commentators notes that the verbs for “sinning” in these verses are in the present tense, which in Greek is a continuous tense. The NIV stresses this continuous aspect by translating “keeps on sinning” and “continues to sin” and “go on sinning.” The argument is that while true believers may sin on occasion (so 1 Jn 1:7–9), they will not habitually sin. The weakness of this position is that it depends on a grammatical subtlety which an interpreter cannot stress in other places in the New Testament where this tense is used. Furthermore, in 1 John 5:16 the same tense is used for a believer seen by a fellow believer “committing a sin.” Here is a true believer who is doing the same thing that is denied in 1 John 3:6, 9. Why doesn’t the NIV translate consistently and so translate this passage “continuing to sin”?

2. Another group of commentators, noticing 1 John 5:16–17, suggests that “the elder” is thinking of two types of sin, a “sin that leads to death” and a “sin that does not lead to death.” The true believer cannot sin a “sin that leads to death,” but may sin the other type of sin. What these sins are is debated, some thinking that they are deliberate versus involuntary sins and others opting for other distinctions among sins (such as the difference between mortal and venial sins in the Roman Catholic tradition). Yet if this is what the elder means, why does he wait until 1 John 5:16 to mention this difference? His terms here appear rather absolute.

3. Still others suggest that John is pointing to an ideal or expressing a tension in the Christian life between the ability not to sin, expressed here, and the reality of sin, expressed in 1 John 1:7–9. That interpretation is also possible, yet does it adequately express the strength of the language used here

4. Finally, there are commentators who suggest that this passage must be taken in the context of the whole of 1 John, which shows that John is arguing on two fronts. On the one hand, one group the elder opposes is arguing that they are beyond sin. He addresses them in 1 John 1:7–9. Another group is arguing that their sins do not matter, since they are enlightened within. He is addressing them here. The weakness of this position is that the author does not make any clear distinction between groups. He does not say, “Now addressing the other group,” or make any similar transition.

How can we evaluate these positions? Any conclusion which we draw must be both exegetically and pastorally sound. On this basis, I believe that while none of the four solutions is impossible, it is the last of them which is the most likely.

The elder is addressing a church situation in which there are some people who hold that Jesus was not really incarnate, probably believing that he only seemed to be a human being. Such beliefs in their full-blown form (which happened in the second century) are the foundation of Gnosticism, a system of belief in which salvation is based in knowledge or enlightenment and in which the physical world is disparaged, while the spiritual world is held in honor.

With respect to sin there are two directions that Gnosticism took. One direction was to deny sin. On the basis of ascetic practices and inner enlightenment the Gnostics believed that they were beyond sin. Naturally such beliefs were underpinned by a good dose of denial. The author addresses such people in 1 John 1:7–9. Rather than think that we are beyond sin and deny that what we do is sinful, Christians should confess their sin and get it removed.

Another direction that Gnosticism took with respect to sin was to claim that sin was irrelevant. Sin was something done in the body, and the body, in their view, was (at best) simply the outside shell of a person. The real person was the spiritual being who through enlightenment was living in communion with God. So one’s body might be sleeping with a prostitute, but one’s spirit was not involved in the act. In this passage the elder is addressing such people in no uncertain terms.

Starting in 1 John 3:6 the author makes a series of contrasts: (1 Jn 3:6a) no one who lives in God sins, (1 Jn 3:6b) no one who sins knows God, (1 Jn 3:7) those who know God live righteously, (1 Jn 3:8) the one who sins belongs to the devil, (1 Jn 3:9) the one born of God cannot sin. Thus we have an A B A B A pattern, shifting back and forth between those who sin and those who do not sin. The person who is saying that it is fine to sin, since sins are only part of the body and thus irrelevant, is condemned in no uncertain terms.

So what is the elder saying? He is saying (1 Jn 3:6) that if believers remain in Christ (which the NIV translates “who lives in him”), which means to stay in intimate connection with Christ, they will not sin. Christ is not the one producing the carelessness about sin that could be seen in the semi-Gnostic opponents of the elder (we say semi-Gnostic or proto-Gnostic, because the full Gnostic systems did not develop until the second century). Far from it, the one who sins is showing that to that extent he or she does not know Christ. The next statement makes the point clear: it is the one who does right who is righteous, for that is what Christ is. If a person really knows Christ, they will live like him. On the other hand, sin shows a person’s inheritance in the devil, so acceptance of sinful living shows where such people are from. It is these very works of the devil that Christ came to destroy.

Then the author makes it clear in the verse we started with that being born of God puts a new nature in a person and that new nature will not sin. John has already admitted that Christians do sin (1 Jn 1:7–9), but that sinning is not due to the new nature. The author draws from the Old Testament picture of God’s putting a new “heart” into believers (“I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees,” Ezek 36:27). This was later picked up in intertestamental literature such as 1 Enoch 5:8 (“And then there shall be bestowed upon the elect wisdom, and they shall live and never again sin”; compare Psalms of Solomon 17:32; the Rule of the Community from the Dead Sea Scrolls, 1QS 4:20–23; Testament of Levi 18:9). The elder, with a background in John 3, expresses this using a picture from typical first-century ideas about human procreation: the male’s sperm (seed) determines what the child will be like. So God’s spiritual “sperm” determines what his children will be like. Those born of God have a nonsinning nature. This is a far cry from the indifference to sin asserted by the opponents.

One way which a believer can see this difference practically is in the love of fellow Christians. The love of fellow Christians is what God has implanted in our heart, while neglect or hatred of fellow Christians shows that we are pseudo-Christians (not born of God, 1 Jn 3:10–18).

So how do believers set their hearts at rest? By noting the nature of God within them, giving them love for fellow Christians and leading them into other righteous deeds. Will “our hearts condemn us”? Yes, they will, for all people will sin from time to time. Yet the God who put his very nature in the believer is greater than “our hearts.”

Is 1 John saying that a true Christian will never sin? No, for he has already admitted that true Christians do sin and will be liars if they deny this truth (1 Jn 1:7–9). What he is saying is that a true Christian has within him or her by virtue of their new birth a power not to sin. God within them is causing righteous living. He is not causing sin. In fact, the secret to not sinning is intimate fellowship with Christ, or “remaining in Christ,” as John puts it. If a person does not experience this new life in them, if they can be indifferent to sin, then they are likely not born of God, as Paul also says (1 Cor 6:9–10; Gal 5:19–21). On the other hand, even if a person is struggling with temptation and at times falling prey to it—indeed because they are struggling and cannot be content with simply sinning—they can have the assurance that because they know the power of God within them impelling them away from sin and toward the love of their fellow believers, they are in fact one of his children and his new life in them will win out in the end.

Here, then, is the tension. We have the picture of a life totally free from sin which will be ours in the future. We have the reality of that new life already being within us. And we have the realization that that new life is not yet totally victorious, so that we must admit our sins, confess them, and appropriate that new life again each day."


Kaiser, Walter C.: Hard Sayings of the Bible. Downers Grove, Il : InterVarsity, 1997, c1996, S. 736
 
S

Saint

Guest
#33
So what you are saying, mpaper345, is that if you walk in the spirit, then you will not sin? If not, please explain exactly what you are talking about.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#34
So what you are saying, mpaper345, is that if you walk in the spirit, then you will not sin? If not, please explain exactly what you are talking about.
Well I amnot sure about mpaper, but that is what Paul taught in the epistles. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#35
Well I amnot sure about mpaper, but that is what Paul taught in the epistles. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust.
then what's with Paul, a devout Christian and apostle, who not only taught about walking in the Spirit, but did walk in the Spirit, say that he does evil that he knows is wrong? That is the definition of sin.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#36
But i believe i can obtain perfection/sinlessness. I believe that I can become just like jesus after all it is Jesus in me that will accomplish this.
I believe that you can, but I do not believe that you will. "If any say he has no sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in Him. If we sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
There is what I am in Christ. And then there is what I am in the present. Between the two there is the cord of conviction (not condemnation), tightly strung. Enough to draw me ever toward what I am in Christ, but not enough to tip me over into condemnation. If that cord snaps, if I ever am satisfied with how far my walk has progressed in righteousness, then I am in trouble. "We are His workmanship" Not my works toward salvation but His work in me because of His grace.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#37
Perfection as God is perfect comes only by birth, and by growing up in all things in Him. When we receive His Spirit, and become born of the Spirit, we take on His nature, in the inner man. This nature is perfect, because it is born of God. Does this nature rule us? Of course not, not at first, and for many, never in this life. But, if we draw near to God, enter into the holy place where He dwells, we will see Him with the eyes of our hearts, and as we see, we are changed to be like Him from glory to glory. In this place, the old person dies, and the hidden places in the heart which are darkness are revealed and illuminated by His light, and we grow in Him. Perfection.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#38
Perfection as God is perfect comes only by birth, and by growing up in all things in Him. When we receive His Spirit, and become born of the Spirit, we take on His nature, in the inner man. This nature is perfect, because it is born of God. Does this nature rule us? Of course not, not at first, and for many, never in this life. But, if we draw near to God, enter into the holy place where He dwells, we will see Him with the eyes of our hearts, and as we see, we are changed to be like Him from glory to glory. In this place, the old person dies, and the hidden places in the heart which are darkness are revealed and illuminated by His light, and we grow in Him. Perfection.
I agree with most of this, except I believe that drawing near to God only minimizes our sins, but we still make mistakes along the way.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#39
I would say the closer to God you get, the more you realise how great your sins are for ultimatly they are against God, God is always the most offended when we sin. when we draw closer, we become more aware of God's almighty Majesty and how feeble and weak we are, the more we draw closer to God the more we are tearfull for the fact that we sin and continue consciously or unconsciously.

The closer we draw to God we realise what a mighty Saviour we have in our Lord, Christ Jesus, who died for wicked people like us, the more we draw near the more we cry with joy for the new hearst God has given us, the more we draw closer we say, thank you Lord for forgiving a sinner like me, empowering me with the Holy Spirit, washed and cleansed by the blood of the lamb, you see my sin no more yet I will sin, your love brings me to repentence for grieving you.

The closer we get to God, the more we realize how big and distructive even our smallest of sins are.


May we all praise God for His mercy that we don't deserve yet have received.


Blessings

Phil