Poll of polls on the longest running debate:
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has this happened yet ?
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;
but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
Christian’s don’t judge our selves eternally we’re preparing for this day
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-31
we havent been judged yet but there’s a day we all Have to be judged according to our works our deeds our words
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
Romans 2:5-10 KJV
so we want to repent and change our sinful ways so they are remitted and forgiven before it’s too late. we want to be saved thankfully we still have time because of Gods Patience
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
If we repent and believe the gospel Jesus has promised to remit and forget our sins if we keep walking in sin we’re just defiling our own souls and storing up alot of wrath and judgement on our souls
even Paul understood he hadn’t been judged yet and he didn’t judge himself before the judge came
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
1 Corinthians 4:3-5
when we claim we aren’t going to be judged we’re already saved we’re trying to remove the only judge who can save us
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;
but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
Christian’s don’t judge our selves eternally we’re preparing for this day
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-31
we havent been judged yet but there’s a day we all Have to be judged according to our works our deeds our words
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
Romans 2:5-10 KJV
so we want to repent and change our sinful ways so they are remitted and forgiven before it’s too late. we want to be saved thankfully we still have time because of Gods Patience
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
If we repent and believe the gospel Jesus has promised to remit and forget our sins if we keep walking in sin we’re just defiling our own souls and storing up alot of wrath and judgement on our souls
even Paul understood he hadn’t been judged yet and he didn’t judge himself before the judge came
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
1 Corinthians 4:3-5
when we claim we aren’t going to be judged we’re already saved we’re trying to remove the only judge who can save us
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Thank you for your kind words. I feel much the same about you.
Yes. You have hit on exactly the issue. I believe that a person who truly is born again. One who has been filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 4:30-32),
whom Jesus said (John 6:37) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of ALL He has given Me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up at the last day. (John 10) And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
He is also this:
Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jude 24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
And so much more....
But just with these we have,
The Holy Spirit indwelling AND SEALING the child of God,
Jesus promising he won't lose a SINGLE person that is His,
that NO ONE, not even yourself, can be snatched away from the closed Hands of Father and Son,
that He started AND WILL finish YOUR Faith,
that He is able to prevent you from falling away.
Think about just that one. Will Jesus fail in that promise?
So all of these, and many others, would somehow have to be twisted in such a way to say that Jesus has failed, and to say that no, it's us that have failed, either means He wasn't truthful with His promises, OR that WE are responsible for keeping what He has paid for, and given us. In other words, by necessity it MUST be some type of work we have to do to keep ourselves saved.
No sister, we are secure in Him. We can grieve Him, and hurt Him, and there ARE terrible consequences for doing such, but one of them ISN'T a loss of eternity with Him.
I assure you, I was on your side in this, until revelation by the Spirit through the Word. I hope you can get there as well.
But no worries, if not. Like a thread I started yrs ago, I know of NO ONE who believes exactly as I do on every issue. You love and trust Him, and that's good enough for me.
Yes. You have hit on exactly the issue. I believe that a person who truly is born again. One who has been filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 4:30-32),
whom Jesus said (John 6:37) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of ALL He has given Me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up at the last day. (John 10) And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
He is also this:
Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jude 24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
And so much more....
But just with these we have,
The Holy Spirit indwelling AND SEALING the child of God,
Jesus promising he won't lose a SINGLE person that is His,
that NO ONE, not even yourself, can be snatched away from the closed Hands of Father and Son,
that He started AND WILL finish YOUR Faith,
that He is able to prevent you from falling away.
Think about just that one. Will Jesus fail in that promise?
So all of these, and many others, would somehow have to be twisted in such a way to say that Jesus has failed, and to say that no, it's us that have failed, either means He wasn't truthful with His promises, OR that WE are responsible for keeping what He has paid for, and given us. In other words, by necessity it MUST be some type of work we have to do to keep ourselves saved.
No sister, we are secure in Him. We can grieve Him, and hurt Him, and there ARE terrible consequences for doing such, but one of them ISN'T a loss of eternity with Him.
I assure you, I was on your side in this, until revelation by the Spirit through the Word. I hope you can get there as well.
But no worries, if not. Like a thread I started yrs ago, I know of NO ONE who believes exactly as I do on every issue. You love and trust Him, and that's good enough for me.
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The Judgment Seat of Christ is not to determine the eternal fate of believers. That was already settled when they were justified by grace through faith. "That he hath done" means the good works (or bad works) of the believer. This judgment is to assess the quality of the works done by Christians during their lifetimes on earth. Some works will have the enduring quality of gold, silver, and precious stones, while other will have the worthlessness of wood, hay, and stubble. All of which are burned up. Based upon this there will be rewards or loss of rewards in Heaven. But the issue of eternal life or eternal damnation was already settled. Which means that the above passage was taken out of context.
The entire question of the eternal security of the believer is based upon either a clear understanding of justification by grace through faith + NOTHING, or a misunderstanding of this important Gospel truth. When God justifies a criminal, He declares him to be as righteous as Christ. Since that is a mind-blowing concept, even Christians struggle with it. But this is all about the grace of God and the perfect finished work of Christ. It is definitely not about our good or bad works. Those who genuinely believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are born again and become new creatures in Christ. And those whom God justifies, He also sanctifies. And those whom He sanctifies, He also glorifies. Salvation is entirely of the Lord.
The entire question of the eternal security of the believer is based upon either a clear understanding of justification by grace through faith + NOTHING, or a misunderstanding of this important Gospel truth. When God justifies a criminal, He declares him to be as righteous as Christ. Since that is a mind-blowing concept, even Christians struggle with it. But this is all about the grace of God and the perfect finished work of Christ. It is definitely not about our good or bad works. Those who genuinely believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are born again and become new creatures in Christ. And those whom God justifies, He also sanctifies. And those whom He sanctifies, He also glorifies. Salvation is entirely of the Lord.
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one [GRACE] Member here will tell you that after being Saved you can leave God and worship Satan and die as a Satan worshiper and still be granted Eternal Paradise with God.
and i am one who also agrees about SIN.
look at the Lord's Prayer:
‘Our Father in heaven,
sanctified be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
Your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’
14 “For if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
but look at Verses 14 and 15 closely:
14 “For if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
^
how many so-called Believers actually are forgiving others who sin against them for God to forgive their own sins?
and i am one who also agrees about SIN.
look at the Lord's Prayer:
‘Our Father in heaven,
sanctified be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
Your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’
14 “For if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
but look at Verses 14 and 15 closely:
14 “For if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
^
how many so-called Believers actually are forgiving others who sin against them for God to forgive their own sins?
this is the judgement seat of Christ
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
pretty basic right ? Jesus judgment is about our deeds what we have done good or evil.
“If the church is already saved “ why does Paul constantly say things like this to the church ?
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
it doesn’t sound like Paul’s explaining “ your not going to be judged your already saved “
Or what about this ?
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:12-13 KJV
In other words Paul’s saying “ unless you repent you will also perish “
As long as we refuse to accept things like this repentance won’t come
“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7
that’s a warning to the church repetitively explaining “ how you live now matters more than it ever did don’t let anyone deceive you into thinking your deeds don’t affect your inheritance in the kingdom , don’t think you won’t perish if you keep sinning “
it would be nice if Jesus just said everyone’s saved no matter what you all do but he didn’t he told us how to be saved and then said hear and believe me and you will be saved
the judgement seat of Christ is the only eternal judgement it will Be this
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29 KJV
just as every scripture pertaining to eternal judgement says it’s based on the deeds of the people. There is no salvstion where the believer gets to say” I believe “ and then thier deeds no longer apply that’s the hypergrace deception
but if you can find the Bible explaining that Jesus judgement isnt about salvation is sure be willing to hear it
repentance is essential for remission of sins because we are absolutely going to be judged by what we do good or evil and evil has its reward also
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
pretty basic right ? Jesus judgment is about our deeds what we have done good or evil.
“If the church is already saved “ why does Paul constantly say things like this to the church ?
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
it doesn’t sound like Paul’s explaining “ your not going to be judged your already saved “
Or what about this ?
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:12-13 KJV
In other words Paul’s saying “ unless you repent you will also perish “
As long as we refuse to accept things like this repentance won’t come
“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7
that’s a warning to the church repetitively explaining “ how you live now matters more than it ever did don’t let anyone deceive you into thinking your deeds don’t affect your inheritance in the kingdom , don’t think you won’t perish if you keep sinning “
it would be nice if Jesus just said everyone’s saved no matter what you all do but he didn’t he told us how to be saved and then said hear and believe me and you will be saved
the judgement seat of Christ is the only eternal judgement it will Be this
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29 KJV
just as every scripture pertaining to eternal judgement says it’s based on the deeds of the people. There is no salvstion where the believer gets to say” I believe “ and then thier deeds no longer apply that’s the hypergrace deception
but if you can find the Bible explaining that Jesus judgement isnt about salvation is sure be willing to hear it
repentance is essential for remission of sins because we are absolutely going to be judged by what we do good or evil and evil has its reward also
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Of course it is not about salvation but about eternal rewards. Therefore you need to bring all related verses together.
Now notice that in the same passage which speaks of the Judgment Seat of Christ, we have the revelation that we believers are (1) new creatures in Christ, (2) that God has reconciled us unto Himself and (3) that we have been made "the righteousness of God" in Christ. Which means that our eternal destiny is already settled:
2 Cor 5:10-21: THE CHRISTIAN'S POSITION IN CHRIST
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences...
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Now back to the Judgment Seat of Christ as seen in 1 Corinthians 3:9-15, which ties in with the fact that (a) we have been given the ministry of reconciliation and (b) we have been made ambassadors for Christ:
1 COR 3:9-15: REWARDS (AND CROWNS) ARE BASED UPON THE QUALITY OF OUR WORKS
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
"According to that he hath done" is the same as "every man's work shall be made manifest". Since Christians are saved "unto good works" (Eph 2:10) is means that Christians must ensure that their good works have enduring value. And what is done for the sake of the Gospel, for the sake of the Kingdom of God, and for the sake of Christ has eternal value.
Now notice that in the same passage which speaks of the Judgment Seat of Christ, we have the revelation that we believers are (1) new creatures in Christ, (2) that God has reconciled us unto Himself and (3) that we have been made "the righteousness of God" in Christ. Which means that our eternal destiny is already settled:
2 Cor 5:10-21: THE CHRISTIAN'S POSITION IN CHRIST
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences...
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Now back to the Judgment Seat of Christ as seen in 1 Corinthians 3:9-15, which ties in with the fact that (a) we have been given the ministry of reconciliation and (b) we have been made ambassadors for Christ:
1 COR 3:9-15: REWARDS (AND CROWNS) ARE BASED UPON THE QUALITY OF OUR WORKS
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
"According to that he hath done" is the same as "every man's work shall be made manifest". Since Christians are saved "unto good works" (Eph 2:10) is means that Christians must ensure that their good works have enduring value. And what is done for the sake of the Gospel, for the sake of the Kingdom of God, and for the sake of Christ has eternal value.
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