Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

[Snacks]

As a man it makes sense that we can walk away from the gift of salvation, thus lose our salvation. Thanks be to God, His ways are not our ways, thus we cannot lose our salvation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course it is not about salvation but about eternal rewards. Therefore you need to bring all related verses together.

Now notice that in the same passage which speaks of the Judgment Seat of Christ, we have the revelation that we believers are (1) new creatures in Christ, (2) that God has reconciled us unto Himself and (3) that we have been made "the righteousness of God" in Christ. Which means that our eternal destiny is already settled:

2 Cor 5:10-21: THE CHRISTIAN'S POSITION IN CHRIST
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences...
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now back to the Judgment Seat of Christ as seen in 1 Corinthians 3:9-15, which ties in with the fact that (a) we have been given the ministry of reconciliation and (b) we have been made ambassadors for Christ:

1 COR 3:9-15: REWARDS (AND CROWNS) ARE BASED UPON THE QUALITY OF OUR WORKS
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

"According to that he hath done" is the same as "every man's work shall be made manifest". Since Christians are saved "unto good works" (Eph 2:10) is means that Christians must ensure that their good works have enduring value. And what is done for the sake of the Gospel, for the sake of the Kingdom of God, and for the sake of Christ has eternal value.

“Of course it is not about salvation but about eternal rewards. Therefore you need to bring all related verses together.”

can you acknolwedge Gods judgement ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭

is that true or not ? And if it’s true of course then is the person who doesn’t keep that are they also already forgiven and saved by grace ?

are you telling me this isn’t about salvstion or eternal judgement ? But some other reward ?

When you talking about Jesus judgement consider just what he’s saying about it

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee …. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your saying there all saved ? is this about salvstion ? Is it about the peoples deeds ? Does it include all nations ?

isn’t it the same thing Paul’s saying

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

instead of trying to figure out why it’s not correct what does it say ? It’s really plain that’s why we have to live this way

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s Christs judgement seat brother it doesn’t Sonia any food to try to prove together thkngs to try to get around it

it’s definetely about eternal life or damnation we have to live by the gospel now because we’re all already guilty of sin beforehand so now we have this law

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;

and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have to be merciful if we expect mercy . If we want to know a gods judgement we have to accept the things he said

like this

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if your saying to perish means your still saved I think we’re on a different wavelength . We as Christian’s aren’t excused to keep sinning that’s the opposite we’re enabled to stop sinning by grace

 

[Pilgrimshope]

As a man it makes sense that we can walk away from the gift of salvation, thus lose our salvation. Thanks be to God, His ways are not our ways, thus we cannot lose our salvation.

This is written to the church by Paul

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Great news and this also is in the same letter to the same people

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭


“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re not supposed to ignore the warnings we’re supposed to hear and heed them

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭

Repentance from sin is part of the gospel it’s not optional

 

[Snacks]

This is written to the church by Paul

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Great news and this also is in the same letter to the same people

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭


“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re not supposed to ignore the warnings we’re supposed to hear and heed them

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭

Repentance from sin is part of the gospel it’s not optional

Condense it.

 

[oyster67]

One can forfeit their Salvation by, as a willful act, turning away and walking in the opposite direction. This is called Apostacy.

Hebrews 6:4 Context
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Hebrews 10:27 Context

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 

[Adstar]

one [GRACE] Member here will tell you that after being Saved you can leave God and worship Satan and die as a Satan worshiper and still be granted Eternal Paradise with God.

and i am one who also agrees about SIN.

look at the Lord's Prayer:

‘Our Father in heaven,
sanctified be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
Your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’
14 “For if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.


but look at Verses 14 and 15 closely:
14 “For if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

^
how many so-called Believers actually are forgiving others who sin against them for God to forgive their own sins?

So failing to forgive another person is sin.. right?

 

[PennEd]

One can forfeit their Salvation by, as a willful act, turning away and walking in the opposite direction. This is called Apostacy.

You mean like the Prodigal son? Who willfully walked away from the Father, and led a life of sin? Was it impossible for him to repent and return to the Father?

And remember, in the previous parable, Jesus said the shepherd would search for the lost SHEEP, (not goat) UNTIL He finds him.


See, this is the issue. The Hebrews 6:4 people, are the same as the 2 Peter:22 people, and the John 2:19 people.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


They were NEVER born again children of God. They EXPERIENCED God, and tasted of the Holy Spirit, but they never truly believed. And certainly weren't born again.

Judas is the greatest example of these people. He spent 3 yrs experiencing Jesus and His power. Yet he never believed Jesus was God in the flesh. He referred to Jesus as "Rabbi" or "Master" but NEVER Lord. And ultimately COULDN'T repent and go to Jesus. As opposed to Peter, who DENIED Jesus, yet acknowledged Him as Lord and Son of God.

Now look brother, at how these people are referred as. DOGS, and PIGS!!

And how are WE referred as?

Sons of God!

Galatians 3:26
New King James Version
Sons and Heirs
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

And John calls us "Little Children" over and over! Here's just one:

1 John 2:1
New King James Version
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.


So you see brother Oysters we are not dogs, or pigs, we are His Kids!

Hebrews 10:27 Context

This whole chapter is about Judaizers and Jews that want to continue sacrificing animals to atone for their sins. Literally despising and trampling on the Blood of Christ, and His Sacrifice to end all sacrifices.
There can remain no sacrifice for them. Jesus' Blood was not sufficient in their eyes so NONE of their sins can be taken away.
These people had the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus, but simply did not believe.


I know from it seems logical to think that a true born again Child of God can, and sometimes does, walk away from the Father, or faith, but if that is the case, then you must acknowledge that Jesus WILL lose some of those the Father has given Him.

So pray on these matters. Please don't dismiss them out of hand. Your Father loves you, and will do what is necessary to keep you His.

 

[awelight]

This right here demonstrates you don't understand the first thing about this issue. No one "loses" their salvation; they forfeit it of their own free will. God never kicks anyone out of His family. Once you're born again, God doesn't turn around and make you "un-born again." When and if you ever get straight on this, then maybe their can be a fruitful discussion.

When the angels sinned and rebelled, they didn't stop being angels.

No, they became fallen angels. The rest were upheld by the power of God from falling.

Anyone who believes, that a true born again believer, can trample under his feet the Word of God - either does not understand what it means to be born again or they fail to understand the Eternal Plan of God in Salvation or they do not clearly understand the Sovereignty of God. If you believe, the will of man can undo what God has done, then you really do not understand God as the God He is.

You make, for example, a lab rat in a maze, equal to you as a human. The rat may choose His path within the confines that the human has established but the rat cannot alter those confines. The rat, just does what a rat does. Only the human can do this. The human is totally sovereign over the rat, even to the extent, that whether the rat lives or dies, is not the rat's choice. It is totally dependent upon the human for it's sustenance.

Does any of this sound familiar? It should,

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This right here demonstrates you don't understand the first thing about this issue. No one "loses" their salvation; they forfeit it of their own free will. God never kicks anyone out of His family. Once you're born again, God doesn't turn around and make you "un-born again." When and if you ever get straight on this, then maybe their can be a fruitful discussion.

When the angels sinned and rebelled, they didn't stop being angels.

this is typical of a person who does not understand the attributes of God.

1. No one forfeits salvation. because no one could merit their own salvation. Since it can not be merited. it can not be lost or forfiet.
2. It is God who saves, it is God who adopts. If someone is lost. He is no longer a son. thus he in essence is kicked out. The prodigal son never stopped being the son.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I belive we are eternally secure but I think OSAS has become quite an agressive movement and is giving cover to that
"hypergrace" or licence to sin belief.

Actually it seems the attach against OSAS os the agressive movement. Trying to put all who believe in an eternally secure position in christ (be it licentious lack of true faith or true saving faith) into one category.

anyone who has true saving faith understands it is not a license to sin. and when they are attacked for believing that.. well, things tend to get heated

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

has this happened yet ?

Yes

He who began a good work WILL completed it

He has PERFECTED FOREVER those he is sanctifying

They will NEVER DIE. and HAVE eternal life

They HAVE BEEN SAVED not by works but his mercy

It is finished

Sealed by his spirit

I can go on and on and on

 

[ResidentAlien]

Anyone who believes, that a true born again believer, can trample under his feet the Word of God - either does not understand what it means to be born again or they fail to understand the Eternal Plan of God in Salvation or they do not clearly understand the Sovereignty of God. If you believe, the will of man can undo what God has done, then you really do not understand God as the God He is.

Fair enough, I don't understand then and I'm okay with that.

 

[Grandpa]

I never said the scripture was dishonest, I said you are. Now you're being dishonest about what I said. Unbelievable.

Nope. I was spot on.

You just don't like the truth.

I quoted 2 verses of scripture and you said that was dishonest. Then you quoted scripture in an attempt to show that the verses I posted didn't mean what they said. I showed what YOU did was actually being dishonest.


But you didn't want to talk about actual truth. You just want to sling accusations. That's pretty lazy, isn't it?

I guess I could just do the same thing.

 

[oyster67]

They were NEVER born again children of God. They EXPERIENCED God, and tasted of the Holy Spirit, but they never truly believed. And certainly weren't born again.

I believe they were. They were said to be partakers of the Holy Ghost. That is what happens when one receives salvation.

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"Renewed again" means they had been renewed previously and lost it.

Now look brother, at how these people are referred as. DOGS, and PIGS!!

Yes they were, and exactly for the reason you stated:

2 Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Nope. I was spot on.

You just don't like the truth.

I quoted 2 verses of scripture and you said that was dishonest. Then you quoted scripture in an attempt to show that the verses I posted didn't mean what they said. I showed what YOU did was actually being dishonest.


But you didn't want to talk about actual truth. You just want to sling accusations. That's pretty lazy, isn't it?

I guess I could just do the same thing.

Okay, I'm against the truth. Have a blessed day.

 

[oyster67]

Your Father loves you

Amen!
Yes, He does, and I love Him. I have full assurance of salvation because I have decided to follow Jesus through thick and thin. He will keep us because we want to be kept. I believe you do also. So glad to be your brother.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Hebrews 10:
35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

God bless you, dear brother Ed.

 

[oyster67]

No one "loses" their salvation; they forfeit it of their own free will. God never kicks anyone out of His family.

Amen.

 

[persistent]

This is written to the church by Paul

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Great news and this also is in the same letter to the same people

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭


“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re not supposed to ignore the warnings we’re supposed to hear and heed them

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭

Repentance from sin is part of the gospel it’s not optional

Is it possible that this is a mystery in a sense? Some of these questions that people have, are possibly not meant to be clearly answered. like little kids might ask a parent and get an answer that still keeps them questioning. How's uncle A?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I am confused as to how someone can forfeit salvation.

to forfeit something is according to definition

Forfeit - lose or be deprived of (property or a right or privilege) as a penalty for wrongdoing:

if this is what happens. We all forfeit salvation because we all have sinned and fallen short.

so how can someone who has been washed in the blood forfeit his salvation by wrongdoing (sin)

 

[persistent]

We need an emoji that indicates something like 'you got me thinking' and/or 'I am stumped'. Or maybe 'beyond me' or 'post scripture reference' or post 'secular reference'.